Burke Mtn sold to Jay Peak

[Riverskier]

Only $50 more (before tax) for Burke which is a total no brainer if you are planning to get a Jay pass or if you plan to ski both Jay and Burke. What is not such a great deal is $749 (before 6% tax) for a Jay only pass. I think that is getting a little too high. Basically, add $50 to either of these prices for your total after tax. For some perspective, my pass in 2007-2008 was $600. So a 1/3 increase in five years. Not sure how that compares to other areas but 1/3 increase in five years seems like a lot to me. I don't know if I'd go for a Jay pass at $800 but if I did, the Burke upgrade for $850 would be a no brainer.

My Boyne Silver pass went from $499 to $645 over that period, so a similar increase. Granted I haven't skied there, but $750 for an unlimited pass to Jay seems like a steal. What comparable mountains offer a cheaper unlimited pass?

 

[kingdom-tele]

Hopefully that is not where they start pricing for next year

2 years NEK.

13-14 will be 950
14-15 1050

 

[xwhaler]

What comparable mountains offer a cheaper unlimited pass?

Smuggs is $569 and includes access to pools/waterslides during the summer.
$749 to Saddleback
$785 Cannon, $588 if NH Resident
$699 (Wildcat, Attitash, Crotched)

With the exception of Smuggs I'm not suggesting the above mtns are comparable to a Jay/Burke offering. Rather, I don't think people will see $799 and immediately jump at the pass based on price alone. It's a nice value for sure but not totally out of the ordinary. They will need to discount the pass a bit to get folks to make the trek all the way up there.

 

[Nick]

Incase you guys missed it or it got buried Steve is doing the AZ Challenge 2012 and will answer our questions re: the acquisition or anything else --> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...eZone-Challenge-2012-Steve-Wright-of-Jay-Peak

 

[thetrailboss]

Re: price.

In terms of similar terrain options and amenities, based on what they have now, I would suggest that Stowe and Sugarbush might be similar options. Sugarbush has hovered around $1,000 per season, all access pass for the same timeframe which is pretty amazing. Stowe, well we know, is well over $1,000 if not $1,400 now.

I don't think you can only look at the price, but the value that you get for a pass. A Jay day pass is now what, $75+ or so without discounts? So if you go 10 days you pay for it. And in terms of improvements, I don't think anyone else has done as much as Jay. But the improvements are in the non-skiing departments. So, unfortunately, folks like Riv and KT are paying for improvements that they don't care or want.

I also think that JPR was undervaluing their passes for a while and got folks expecting a pass in the $5-600 range, which is a really good deal. When you condition folks to that price any increase is hard to swallow even though costs continue to climb.

That said, it has been a while since I was a passholder at Jay, but I will say that they did a good job with their customers and with service. Sugarbush does as well. Yes the price is high, but I felt I got good value. Same is the case with Snowbird...we feel we get good value for the price.

 

[Riverskier]

Smuggs is $569 and includes access to pools/waterslides during the summer.
$749 to Saddleback
$785 Cannon, $588 if NH Resident
$699 (Wildcat, Attitash, Crotched)

With the exception of Smuggs I'm not suggesting the above mtns are comparable to a Jay/Burke offering. Rather, I don't think people will see $799 and immediately jump at the pass based on price alone. It's a nice value for sure but not totally out of the ordinary. They will need to discount the pass a bit to get folks to make the trek all the way up there.

Those numbers you provide just further illustrate my point, as I don't think those mountains are comparable to a Jay/Burke combo (with the possible exception of Smuggs), yet are similar in price. Places like Sugarbush and Stowe are MUCH more expensive. Therefore, I stand by my opinion that the pass is an exceptional value.

That said, your opinion regarding discounting the pass in order to convince people to make the long drive may very well be valid. I don't know enough about current business levels, future expectations, how much they can increase business via other means (water parks, marketing, etc.) to really have an opinion on that. I do know that it is certainly a challenege running a ski resort in a remote area, as Sugarloaf and Saddleback can attest. At least Jay has Montreal.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Incase you guys missed it or it got buried Steve is doing the AZ Challenge 2012 and will answer our questions re: the acquisition or anything else --> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...eZone-Challenge-2012-Steve-Wright-of-Jay-Peak

So far I don't really have any questions. The general announcements for snow making improvements has been announced as well as the new Pass pricing. I'm waiting for more info to come out on plans for the mtn in order to ask somewhat intelligent questions.
And Steve is the Marketing guy for Jay and not Burke even though they are now under the same ownership. Wait.... maybe there is a question in there

 

[JPTracker]

Here's another significant price increase:

For Jay only
Senior Before May 15 Age: 55-69 Price: $499
Senior After May 15 Age: 60-69 Price: $549
Adult After May 15 Age:19-59 Price: $749

If you didn't buy your pass early and in the 55- 59 age range thats a 50% ($250) increase.

 

[riverc0il]

My Boyne Silver pass went from $499 to $645 over that period, so a similar increase. Granted I haven't skied there, but $750 for an unlimited pass to Jay seems like a steal. What comparable mountains offer a cheaper unlimited pass?

Depends how you define "comparable". For 2k mountains, quite a few, actually.

 

[riverc0il]

I don't think you can only look at the price, but the value that you get for a pass. A Jay day pass is now what, $75+ or so without discounts? So if you go 10 days you pay for it. And in terms of improvements, I don't think anyone else has done as much as Jay. But the improvements are in the non-skiing departments. So, unfortunately, folks like Riv and KT are paying for improvements that they don't care or want.

I also think that JPR was undervaluing their passes for a while and got folks expecting a pass in the $5-600 range, which is a really good deal. When you condition folks to that price any increase is hard to swallow even though costs continue to climb.

You really can't compare straight up full value when estimating the break even price. That assumes paying full walk up every day. Maybe day trippers that don't ski much might do that. But someone that skis enough to look at a season pass option... not so much. Season passes can be broken down into two camps: those that do it for the culture and those that do it for the savings. If you are interested in savings, you're probably sniping deals. And goodness knows Jay tosses out more deals than average.

That said, you are right on the mark that the price increases take into account non-skiing amenities (plus RFID -- I'll eat crow, Jay is passing along the cost of that onto the consumer). Improvements to skiing and terrain have been essentially nil. New beginner lift going in? Great, now it will take longer to get to Tramside than grabbing the t-bar (tongue in cheek on that one, just saying it isn't an improvement that does me any good).

Regarding JPR undervaluing passes... perhaps. They were definitely in the big mountain at a value price category before. They are definitely approaching resort pricing now. And hey, Jay is a resort. But the on mountain product hasn't improved the 1/3 price increase over five years. Why anyone wouldn't upgrade to the Burke deal for $50 is beyond me. Two mountains for $850 after taxes is certainly stomachable. That said, I'm not sure I'll be looking at Jay for a season pass next season when I stop playing the field.

 

[thetrailboss]

You really can't compare straight up full value when estimating the break even price. That assumes paying full walk up every day. Maybe day trippers that don't ski much might do that. But someone that skis enough to look at a season pass option... not so much. Season passes can be broken down into two camps: those that do it for the culture and those that do it for the savings. If you are interested in savings, you're probably sniping deals. And goodness knows Jay tosses out more deals than average.

True. But even when factoring in discounts, and not considering that one has to wait for promotions to occur and have no control over when and where to ski, a person still will pay at least, what, $45-50 or so per day for lift-served skiing? So for the dollar value, yes, the break-even may be closer to 15 days or so.

But I guess I was also going for the more abstract idea of "value" for the money. I think that Jay built up a core group of die-hard skiers that valued the terrain, glades, and snow as well as the very reasonable season pass price. Obviously passholders have to subsidize other things that they may not want, but I wonder if in Jay's case the die-hards are going to start getting unhappy with subsidizing the amenities for others that they don't want and won't use, and if Jay will start to lose "value" for that crowd.

Then again, they just added a whole new ski area to the mix and a good one for folks that desire good skiing and terrain. I guess we can only wait and see what happens next season. If the price holds steady then we may know, or at least figure, that they were just going for a one-time adjustment.

 

[riverc0il]

15 days I think is realistic factoring in deals such as early season, late season, 242 newsletter, coupons, ski club deals, skivt deals, etc. And don't forget discount for passholder at another mountain, something to be considered as well if you are on the fence. Regarding the value issue... Jay does have some of the best powder in New England and a great glade network. But that is a wash with high winds, cold, distance, and not great terrain when the snow isn't powdery (i.e. Jay is a horrible mountain after a rain/freeze event or when the snow is firm). I still think as a skiing experience, Jay caters to a certain crowd. But as a resort experience.... I don't know. Their FB photo today was a bunch of kids teeing up at the driving range. Raising Em' Jay no longer means Raising Em' Skiers.

Basically, I've had a Jay pass before and barely broke even both times I paid for one compared to discounting. There are other perks being a pass holder such as not having to hunt for deals, not having to go to customer service for a ticket, walking right up to the lift, etc. and now Burke for only $50 more.

I guess to sum up my point, I'm concerned that this Jay/Burke pass is only a price increase or two away from being a four figure pass after taxes. At $847 after taxes, it is getting pretty darn, it is only $140 away (pre-taxes) from being a four figure deal. It'll get there within a few seasons for sure at this rate.

 

[thetrailboss]

I think that most passes do use the 15 day number for calculating pass prices or setting up pricing tiers. They want to get people to commit.

The fact that Jay, for most folks, is a long ways away I think restricted them from pushing their prices up too much for a while. As you suggest, committing to driving that far for most of the market is a hard thing to do. So to compensate Jay had lower prices to attract folks. Now the price is going up. Will folks still commit or will they start looking again like you?

But you hit on some shortfalls for Jay--the weather, location, and terrain. Burke compliments them as being a better location for access and having less wind issues.

 

[riverc0il]

Not an issue for locals or MTL, but gas expense might be a consideration as well for folks traveling. Only two hours for me... but every area in VT is two hours for me. But an hour or two longer drive (each way) can add up to an extra $20/trip. Times 20 trips and you're up to $400 more for the travel time.

But I doubt most people factor in fuel expense when selecting pass prices. I bet time on the road is MUCH more of an issue compared to extra gas.

 

[thetrailboss]

FWIW Bretton Woods passes are $839 each. Not a similar ski experience, but lots of resort amenities and nearby.

And I wonder who Jay targets as its competitors.

 

[kingdom-tele]

15 days I think is realistic factoring in deals such as early season, late season, 242 newsletter, coupons, ski club deals, skivt deals, etc. And don't forget discount for passholder at another mountain, something to be considered as well if you are on the fence. Regarding the value issue... Jay does have some of the best powder in New England and a great glade network. But that is a wash with high winds, cold, distance, and not great terrain when the snow isn't powdery (i.e. Jay is a horrible mountain after a rain/freeze event or when the snow is firm). I still think as a skiing experience, Jay caters to a certain crowd. But as a resort experience.... I don't know. Their FB photo today was a bunch of kids teeing up at the driving range. Raising Em' Jay no longer means Raising Em' Skiers.

Basically, I've had a Jay pass before and barely broke even both times I paid for one compared to discounting. There are other perks being a pass holder such as not having to hunt for deals, not having to go to customer service for a ticket, walking right up to the lift, etc. and now Burke for only $50 more.

I guess to sum up my point, I'm concerned that this Jay/Burke pass is only a price increase or two away from being a four figure pass after taxes. At $847 after taxes, it is getting pretty darn, it is only $140 away (pre-taxes) from being a four figure deal. It'll get there within a few seasons for sure at this rate.

it already is 4 figures for anyone buying after Oct 15

curious to see what the VT'r rate will be this year

800-1000 is out of our league

 

[WWF-VT]

And I wonder who Jay targets as its competitors.

Tremblant ?

 

[fbrissette]

Tremblant ?

I would be surprised and i certainly hope they do not. I don't think Trembant skiers would enjoy Jay Peak that much. They might steal a few families away with the aquaparc but Tremblant caters to the rich and glitzy crowd. I was Tremblant raised and gradually move south to Jay as a late teen (when we could drive), as Intrawest gradually destroyed the mountain spirit.

Jay Peak marketing north of the border consisted entirely of the aquapark. This tells me that they are after families that spend a ski week once a year.

Francois

And for your information, a Tremblant season's pass is 1500$.

 

[JPTracker]

Here's another significant price increase:

For Jay only
Senior Before May 15 Age: 55-69 Price: $499
Senior After May 15 Age: 60-69 Price: $549
Adult After May 15 Age:19-59 Price: $749

If you didn't buy your pass early and in the 55- 59 age range thats a 50% ($250) increase.

Followup:

Just got a letter from Jay saying that since I had previously purchased a Senior Pass I will continue to be able to purchase a pass at Senior Rates until I turn 60.

That's how you treat your loyal customers.

 

[Sick Bird Rider]

Followup:

Just got a letter from Jay saying that since I had previously purchased a Senior Pass I will continue to be able to purchase a pass at Senior Rates until I turn 60.

That's how you treat your loyal customers.

That's cool, I guess I will be getting the same letter. I noticed this increase and was gearing up for a rant. Purchased my first full pass back in May (at the $499 price) and was pleased that they let me buy it before I turned 55, though I will be 55 by the time the snow flies. At least there is one good thing about getting old!