Harvey
Well-known member
Agree. But, IMO you got to be careful about competing with the taxpaying ski areas who fund your losses.
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Cannon Lover's Thread
- Thread starter Puck it
- Start date
Agree. But, IMO you got to be careful about competing with the taxpaying ski areas who fund your losses.
Smellytele
Well-known member
All I have to say is I don’t want cannon to turn into a Sunapee. Liked Sunapee before the lease. Do not now.
When you say, "before the lease", do you mean before the Muellers or in its current state with Vail?
True. How does NY deal with that (since you're there)? There are what, two or three state-owned ski areas in NY?
That's a question for mountain management. Not the "state".One of my pet peeves with Cannon (as mentioned above on Rocket) is how The State thinks they can get away with not grooming out the huge whales on the front.You start with a pitch of 30 degrees or so, butt you can have a free fall on the downhill side. I get it, they want to drain and dry etc.
Sometimes these are a blast if you can get an edge...
I am not following you at all......
Again, no idea what you are talking about.
Smellytele
Well-known member
Before muellers
Smellytele
Well-known member
No one knows what he is talking about. Ever
KustyTheKlown
Well-known member
Gore whiteface and Belleayre are state owned and operated by ORDA. The Olympic region development authority. I am not sure how it all works
Each of them are really great when the snow cooperates
I thought that there were three.....
I remember that cheap instate midweek cannon Sunapee combo pass it was awesome!
Smellytele
Well-known member
I had an combo one when my oldest was a baby and I worked 2nd shift. Skied 3 days a week and then went to work. The other 2 days I would watch him until 2 then dropped him off for 2 hours until my wife got out of work.
It was a perfect geographic combo for me. I got my first one as a gift for high school graduation and the following winter changed the course of my life. Sunapee was so relaxed back then. That summit chair kinda sucked back then.
Good point.
That is what he is representing it to be, but that is one single page of a financial report (now that I can open it) and it is entitled, "Capital Improvement Fund." It does not capture revenue at all. Instead, it appears to be summarizing capital expenditures and bonds issued to fund capital projects at Cannon. That is not at all the final financial report. If you are relying on that to support your argument then you are completely wrong. Now would I be surprised if Cannon is revenue negative? Not at all. But that single page with no other financial information or explanation does not prove that point. It merely shows their capital debt and summarizes how they are servicing that debt. If anything it actually shows that the debt is slowly disappearing (if I am reading it correctly).
The owner of that site applied to be the GM of Cannon the same year that the current one applied. When he was passed over, he then began a relentless campaign to completely discredit the successful candidate and his work and to nitpick everything Cannon. He would frequently misrepresent or misinterpret information to make claims that were unfounded. If you search here you will find the threads. He is not credible. Again, I take what he says with a grain of salt.
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NYS essentially funds all the capital improvements via state budget appropriations and also funds about 25% of the annual operating budget for ORDA out of the state budget (which this year comes to around $15M for the operating budget contributed by NYS). For FY 22/23, the operating budget is expected to have a small "profit" of around 100K. So if it wasn't for the $15M provided by NYS, ORDA would essentially be losing money at the moment (and this doesn't include the capital expenditures which have been fairly substantial recently).
But as already mentioned in this thread, many recreational services paid for by taxes don't turn a profit but still have a benefit. So I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just explaining a bit how it works.
At one point Belleayre was operated by the DEC within NY instead of ORDA. Then they consolidated all the ski areas under ORDA (slightly over 10 years ago I think if I remember correctly?). Also worth noting that ORDA runs more than just the ski areas. They also run the ski jumping complex and the Olympic Center in Lake Placid. I don't think any of their financial reports break out profit/loss by venue (they do show revenue by venue in the annual report, but I don't think they show expenses per venue).
taxpayersforcannon
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This statement is wholly incorrect and is defamatory in nature. A practicing attorney should know better.
RH29
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oh boy, a brand new account representing an unnamed group of taxpayers and trying to speak in legalese! what could go wrong?
I see that you are back, threecy.
Harvey
Well-known member
Three areas. Gore, Whiteface and Belleayre.
NY has a history of handling it very poorly. Things have gotten better in the last decade, but I don't think that the private operators most effected would agree that it is working.
In the 60s and 70s the state was ruthless. In the Adirondacks, the state prohibited directional and marketing signage for private areas while allowing it for the state areas (Gore mostly).
Now that there are (almost) no private areas in the Adk, the issue is more focused in the Catskills. Until 2012, when ORDA took over management of Belleayre, it was really broken. Belleayre was run by the NY DEC - Department of Conservation, not a great advocate for business. They invested nothing in Belleayre. Belleayre's GM at the time had no tools to promote his hill, and he resorted to dumping a huge amount of free tickets into the marketplace. This really caused a lot of tension. See Plattekill's position in the link below.
Since ORDA took over Belle things have really changed in that regard. But still, there are huge capex projects (Belleayre Gondola) that are done without any kind of ROI calculation. It's a dance, and it will never be perfect.
One big thing the privates are fighting for: they pay an 8% tax on all electric consumption, that the state areas don't pay.
Full disclosure, I am a huge Plattekill fan/passholder and I might not be fully objective on this.
Laszlo Vajtay on the Belleayre Mountain Expansion
The Belleayre Mountain expansion could hurt the local businesses it will compete against. My ski area, Plattekill, is one of those businesses.
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Abubob
Well-known member
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