Dearest Mt. Operators......please don't groom 'Double Diamonds' ever

[Paul_M]

I appreciated having freshly groomed steeper runs at Killington over President's Day week. The frozen, hard bumps at that time kept everyone off the ungroomed, which obviously forces all the traffic on the groomed runs. It gave me some relief from the mobs and was fairly entertaining from 8-10 am when the crowds hit.

From past experience skiing a mtn on a daily basis having a normally ungroomed run groomed 4 or 5 times a year mixes up the routine. Things quickly revert to the natural conditions.

 

[goldsbar]

...they groom the hell out of Annapurna which is a true sin against expert skiing. Makes no sense to me and the steep narrow headwall on top is another slide for life zone.

There have been times, not often, that I've found skiing an ungroomed perfectly bumped Annapurna to be one of the top experiences in skiing - not just in the Catskills or Northeast. There's something about that trail when it's bumped up, especially with some good natural snow. It's got the perfect pitch and width for a bump trail. More often than not it's been just another rock hard groomer.

 

[kingslug]

There have been times, not often, that I've found skiing an ungroomed perfectly bumped Annapurna to be one of the top experiences in skiing - not just in the Catskills or Northeast. There's something about that trail when it's bumped up, especially with some good natural snow. It's got the perfect pitch and width for a bump trail. More often than not it's been just another rock hard groomer.

I've had some interesting runs down her..some good..some..not so good..but when its good..its real good!

 

[snoseek]

In a prefect world when those trails froze over they would just get resurfaced with snowmaking for one night and never need to be groomed. I never understood the obsession with so many steep groomers. When its firm it's actaully kinda dangerous!

 

[MadPadraic]

The biggest offenders I know of are in the Poconos. Camelback and Blue Mountain have "double black diamonds" on their map, and they're ridiculous.



That's because you're not really skiing the ones with bumps, you're using them like horses used the bumps people created on old steep roads.



Probably not close enough, if you've never seen a young or beginner snowboarder with a 5 inch pile of snow bulldozing along the entire length of his/her board while side-scraping down an entire trail (that he/she isnt skilled enough to be on).

There's no doubt snowboarding can have a detrimental effect on certain steep trails (or portions of trails), but it's the crappy or novice snowboarders that are guilty of this.

Horses did what now?

Re pushing a 5 inch pile of snow: The trails in question don't have enough snow, because they've been groomed to the point where they have no snow.

 

[Puck it]

A good grooming every now and then is fine. It works on me!

 

[JimG.]

There have been times, not often, that I've found skiing an ungroomed perfectly bumped Annapurna to be one of the top experiences in skiing - not just in the Catskills or Northeast. There's something about that trail when it's bumped up, especially with some good natural snow. It's got the perfect pitch and width for a bump trail. More often than not it's been just another rock hard groomer.

Totally agree, as do many of my friends.

The lower half of the run bumps up perfectly, almost looks seeded, but it's all natural.

 

[St. Bear]

Totally agree, as do many of my friends.

The lower half of the run bumps up perfectly, almost looks seeded, but it's all natural.

I wouldn't know because the only time that I've been there with it open was the 84" storm when Z lift lost power and I had to walk back to the main lodge.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Horses did what now?

Ever been on a steep, old (pre-cars) road, usually out in the country? Notice how every so often there's a "bump" or small plateau in the road, then the steep grade continues on, then there's another little rise/plateau in the road, then the steep grade continues on, etc....

Those little bumps interrupting the grade were put in for the horses. It gave them a little rest spot, and IIRC, they also artificially broke up the visual appearance of the steepness to make the grade appear less frightening to the horse.

 

[AdironRider]

Im not opposed to groomer steep trails, especially on the East Coast with freeze thaws, less snowfall, etc. That can do a number on a run, and in an area that has varying and little snowfall, Id rather have more skiable terrain, than leaving them natural just do you can make yourself feel more "core" on the inside.

Now grooming them just to groom them, not so much, but outside of select places, I dont feel this is really the case. I would place Whiteface and Sugarloaf directly within this realm. Both places are groomed pretty much everywhere but the woods. Empire and Misery Whip excluded.

 

[oakapple]

The biggest offenders I know of are in the Poconos. Camelback and Blue Mountain have "double black diamonds" on their map, and they're ridiculous.

Funny you should say that. I skied Camelback on Saturday. There is only one double-diamond on the map, Cliffhanger. You'd expect the lone DD to be the hardest thing on the hill. Instead, the hardest thing was Asp, a heavily bumped-up single black. Another single black, Margie's Delight, had gone at least a few days without grooming, and was starting to bump up. The remaining blacks, including the purported double-black Cliffhanger, had all been groomed.

Most of the blacks seemed to have similar pitch as Cliffhanger, so I don't know why that one alone had the second diamond. I suppose Camelback doesn't really have any double diamonds as I would define them. I don't know the hill well enough to know if they rotate grooming them, or if Asp is always the ungroomed one. I suppose I would give that trail the second diamond, but only when it is ungroomed.

 

[4aprice]

Funny you should say that. I skied Camelback on Saturday. There is only one double-diamond on the map, Cliffhanger. You'd expect the lone DD to be the hardest thing on the hill. Instead, the hardest thing was Asp, a heavily bumped-up single black. Another single black, Margie's Delight, had gone at least a few days without grooming, and was starting to bump up. The remaining blacks, including the purported double-black Cliffhanger, had all been groomed.

Most of the blacks seemed to have similar pitch as Cliffhanger, so I don't know why that one alone had the second diamond. I suppose Camelback doesn't really have any double diamonds as I would define them. I don't know the hill well enough to know if they rotate grooming them, or if Asp is always the ungroomed one. I suppose I would give that trail the second diamond, but only when it is ungroomed.

Its all relative. Cliffy is a double diamond but is not the steepest trail on the mountain. Hump is actually the steepest pitch. The headwall on Cliffhanger is the longest steep pitch and thats why it gets the 2nd diamond. As a CBK regular I've been pushing management to let at least a 1/4 of Cliffhanger's head wall to be bumped up. You do that and it would live up to double diamond status. They seem open to the idea but obviously this year just keeping terrain open was priority #1. Maybe next year.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ