EU Study Confirms that Alps Experiencing Record Warmth; Ski Areas Suffer Impacts

[ctenidae]

Is it possible that Earth needs these climate changes for a reason we don't understand? And perish the thought, is it possible that we could make our situation a whole lot worse by trying to do something about it? Has anyone considered this possibility?

The Earth can get along just fine without us. If this is a change designed to clear us out, then there's not much we can do about it. It's worth trying, though. I seriously can't see how reducing the amount of carbon we pump into the atmosphere can hurt in any way. If the Earth "needs" more carbon in the atmosphere, I'm sure it can squeeze off a volcano or two.

 

[ctenidae]

In democracies where people have a voice, they will demand it, but only after we suffer significant economic loses as a result of it. We as a people don’t usually react unless it hits us in our bank accounts.

Right now we're worried about cheap gas.

Winner.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

Either it's happening and we're causing it and can fix it, or it's happening and we're causing it and can't fix it, or it's happening, we're not causing it, and we can't fix it.

Either way, are we doing anything to prepare for it?
I think not. There in, my friends, lies the problem.

Think about what it means- the tropics extend farther north, leaving a wider equatorial band of deserts. Africa gets consumed by the Sahara, southern Europe dries up, southern Asia , India, and most of China roast. Iowa becomes sub tropical, the Northeast coastline is moved in to Lincoln, NH or so, Florida sinks (okay, side benefit). The Great Plains becomes another dust bowl, the tundras become massive swamps.

All in all, massive population dislocations, huge droughts and famines, total global climate change. It's not pretty. Doesn't it make sense to try anything and everything to slow or reverse the change, regardless of the cause? But no, let's quibble over whether it was a power plant or a volcano that caused the latest 1/10th of a degree warmup.

You make alot of sense to me.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Food for thought...

Has anyone considered that Earth goes through these changes for reasons that are essential for it's own well being? I know we all tend to think that these changes screw up our skiing or oil consumption or some other human habit or activity and occur for no other reason.

Let's get a little less self absorbed.

Is it possible that Earth needs these climate changes for a reason we don't understand? And perish the thought, is it possible that we could make our situation a whole lot worse by trying to do something about it? Has anyone considered this possibility?

Remember folks, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

After watching on the news of what happened at the stores regarding the sale of the new PS3's, my idealism took a big hit. Maybe "cleaning the state" and starting all over might not be such a bad idea. With the obsessiveness in our culture, especially the younger generation, with Ipods, cell phones, IM'ing, video games, clothes that have to say, Abacrombie and whatever , I think it's on life support. Sometimes amputation is the only cure. You might think I have become cynical, I don't think so...I just call then how I see them. Having 3 teenagers might have tainted my view just abit...:wink:

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

After watching on the news of what happened at the stores regarding the sale of the new PS3's, my idealism took a big hit. Maybe "cleaning the state" and starting all over might not be such a bad idea. With the obsessiveness in our culture, especially the younger generation, with Ipods, cell phones, IM'ing, video games, clothes that have to say, Abacrombie and whatever , I think it's on life support. Sometimes amputation is the only cure. You might think I have become cynical, I don't think so...I just call then how I see them. Having 3 teenagers might have tainted my view just abit...:wink:

What the heck are you saying C10? The Earth should be scorched because teenagers like electronics?

 

[koreshot]

Has anyone considered that Earth goes through these changes for reasons that are essential for it's own well being?

Yes. Many scientists have considered that argument and have come to a conclusion that what we are seeing today is not one of those unpredictable changes, at least not as far back as we can see. Deep cored drilling, researching ancient trees and other deposits has enabled scientists to with reasonable accuracy observe the temperatures of the earth over the last 600,000 years.

They claim that at no point in the last 600,000 years have they seen such a spike in temperatures or green house gases. So if the climate change is not induced by humans then a few other possible answers come to mind:

a) inaccurate research and data gathering (this is possible, but unlikely given the volume of scientists, countries, programs and organizations invlovled in this)
b) conspiracy theory by scientists (people who claim this need to get a life)
c) the earth is going thru a climate change that happens less frequently than every 600,000 years, therefore we have no record of it (possible, but unlikely)

I have a number of friends who I trust with things like this, including one that recently finished a phd program on global warming. He says that in the global warming research field, 99% of reputable "impartial" scientists agree that a major warming is going on and ~80% of them think its unnatural and caused by human activity.

What I don't understand is why can't we just assume the 80% are right and start doing something now. If the 80% are wrong, we will have put GM and Exxon out of business for no good reason (well maybe just GM. Exxon would just make less money than they would like to). If the 80% are right, we kill our own ecosystem and throw human civilization into chaos. I for one, would be happier living in a world with no GM and Exxon.

 

[loafer89]

I am a firm believer in Global Warming, I am just not 100% sold on the fact that the cause is man made. I do think that we have limited control over the future of the Earth's climate to some degree, as our greenhouse gass emissions are forcing the climate to change in way's that we do not fully understand. I do not think that we could cause global cooling, unless we could force more warming and you believe in the shutting off of the Gulf Stream and the global ocean conveyor system. Even this would probably only cause short term cooling in North America and Europe.

Global Warming has happened before and will happen again, but these sudden climate changes have not been experienced with better than 6 billion people on our planet, and the results may not be to our liking. Winter weather will always be around, winter may just be shorter and more severe with increased precipitation and wild swings in temperature.

 

[JimG.]

Well, let me think.... you and Jerry Falwell come to mind.

I knew I could count on you to step over the line.

Folks who believe that humans cause global warming often accuse folks who don't toe their line of ignoring science and of being closed minded.

So it's refreshing to see someone who obviously believes that humans are the cause of climate change counter my argument with a refusal to see another possible side to this story. I didn't know you were so closed minded.

You've insulted me before with the reference to a person so far out on the periphery of any kind of conventional thinking. Instead of continuing, i will sit back and listen to all of your little plans to fix our planet.

 

[koreshot]

Who the hell is Jerry Falwell?

 

[JimG.]

After watching on the news of what happened at the stores regarding the sale of the new PS3's, my idealism took a big hit. Maybe "cleaning the state" and starting all over might not be such a bad idea. With the obsessiveness in our culture, especially the younger generation, with Ipods, cell phones, IM'ing, video games, clothes that have to say, Abacrombie and whatever , I think it's on life support. Sometimes amputation is the only cure. You might think I have become cynical, I don't think so...I just call then how I see them. Having 3 teenagers might have tainted my view just abit...:wink:

I believe I have found someone who thinks a bit like me.

I applaud you for opening yourself up to possible abuse; rest assured I support your opinion.

 

[ski_adk]

If the 80% are wrong, we will have put GM and Exxon out of business for no good reason ...

Not necessarily...If it's really that important to keep Exxon in business and its workers employed, the government can help them transition to becoming the world's largest provider of alternative energy sources. The reason that we aren't investing in alternatives is because so much of our capital is tied up in the oil industry. Hell, while the oil industry is receiving huge amounts of gov't research grants, they're also claiming record profits... :\

Anyways, a brief looks at human history will show that for most of our short existence on this planet, we have been living under chaos. Unfortunately, times of peace and plenty are not nearly as frequent nor as lasting as the tumultuous.

 

[JimG.]

I am a firm believer in Global Warming, I am just not 100% sold on the fact that the cause is man made. I do think that we have limited control over the future of the Earth's climate to some degree, as our greenhouse gass emissions are forcing the climate to change in way's that we do not fully understand. I do not think that we could cause global cooling, unless we could force more warming and you believe in the shutting off of the Gulf Stream and the global ocean conveyor system. Even this would probably only cause short term cooling in North America and Europe.

Global Warming has happened before and will happen again, but these sudden climate changes have not been experienced with better than 6 billion people on our planet, and the results may not be to our liking. Winter weather will always be around, winter may just be shorter and more severe with increased precipitation and wild swings in temperature.

Another who is thinking about all possible causes and outcomes.

 

[koreshot]

After watching on the news of what happened at the stores regarding the sale of the new PS3's, my idealism took a big hit. Maybe "cleaning the state" and starting all over might not be such a bad idea. With the obsessiveness in our culture, especially the younger generation, with Ipods, cell phones, IM'ing, video games, clothes that have to say, Abacrombie and whatever , I think it's on life support. Sometimes amputation is the only cure. You might think I have become cynical, I don't think so...I just call then how I see them. Having 3 teenagers might have tainted my view just abit...:wink:

I think what you may be describing here is materialism, which eventually translates to more energy waste and pollution. People that sell their reasonably fuel efficient cars to buy hybrids don't necessarily help the earth. An average american will generate 3 times more garbage and consume 3 times more energy in his lifetime than an average chinese.

Anyway, gotta run, HUGE Chrsitmas shopping list to go thru....

 

[koreshot]

Not necessarily...If it's really that important to keep Exxon in business and its workers employed, the government can help them transition to becoming the world's largest provider of alternative energy sources. The reason that we aren't investing in alternatives is because so much of our capital is tied up in the oil industry. Hell, while the oil industry is receiving huge amounts of gov't research grants, they're also claiming record profits... :\

Anyways, a brief looks at human history will show that for most of our short existence on this planet, we have been living under chaos. Unfortunately, times of peace and plenty are not nearly as frequent nor as lasting as the tumultuous.

Agreed. I was just making a point. I believe that there is money to be made, people to be employed and new business opportunities and prosperity to be found in the "energy efficiency" sector. The goverment just needs to jump start this sector with some big tax money. Instead they passed the same old energy bill giving 10 times more tax breaks to oil companies like Exxon (record profits must be nice) than they did to companies that find sustainable sources of alt eng.

 

[riverc0il]

fact: climate change is happening.

the only questions up for debate are what caused it, are humans responsible, and can humans do something about it. i refuse to get into this debate on a public forum, but just wanted to call out any one that disputes that the earth is undergoing a warming period that you are DEAD WRONG. period. debate the other stuff all you want, fact is the GLOBAL CLIMATE is changing. emphasis on both global AND climate because LOCAL WEATHER will always fluctuate. linking this ski season here in new england or any where else to global climate change is premature (however, linking ski areas that have melting glaciers seems reasonable, lots of glacier melt is on going world wide). fact is, there is a possibility that certain parts of the world could get colder or snowier even while the majority of the world get warmer.

 

[ctenidae]

Agreed. I was just making a point. I believe that there is money to be made, people to be employed and new business opportunities and prosperity to be found in the "energy efficiency" sector. The goverment just needs to jump start this sector with some big tax money. Instead they passed the same old energy bill giving 10 times more tax breaks to oil companies like Exxon (record profits must be nice) than they did to companies that find sustainable sources of alt eng.

Government money's not the way to get it done. The gov't doesn't have anywhere near enough money to throw at it. Fortunately, VC money is starting to pour in. It's not massive amounts yet, but what there is is spread out over a wide range of technologies. Some look more promising than others, but they're all getting a good hard look. There are some pretty sizeable chunks moving in. Over the past 2 years, there have been 200 companies funded (according to one of my databases) for a total of $1.8B in clean energy, conservation, and pollution control industries. 124 of those companies, and $1.4 billion, occured in 2006 alone. By comparison, 2004 saw 86 companies for a grand total of $464 million.

Think the government can put $1.4 billion to work efficiently? I don't. These guys are here to make it economical, and have realized that clean/renewable is the way to do it. Exxon's not doing it, because, as they say, they are an oil company. BP is doing it, because they are an energy company. No, government's role is to resist the power of GM etc, and recognize the need for stronger emmissions controls, and provide tax credits for people who use clean energy, even if it costs more than regular.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I knew I could count on you to step over the line.

You've insulted me before with the reference to a person so far out on the periphery of any kind of conventional thinking. Instead of continuing, i will sit back and listen to all of your little plans to fix our planet.

I have never insulted you or anyone else in this forum and I resent what you wrote. I was trying for a little tongue in cheek humor that would help make my point. That is all.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

What the heck are you saying C10? The Earth should be scorched because teenagers like electronics?

"like electronics" ...your kidding right? I like cars but when a new model comes out I'm not waiting in line for 2 days and when the doors open up I'm pushing and shoving, knocking people down and then punching the lights out of the person who has grabbed, at the same time as me, the last box. Unreal

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

"like electronics" ...your kidding right? I like cars but when a new model comes out I'm not waiting in line for 2 days and when the doors open up I'm pushing and shoving, knocking people down and then punching the lights out of the person who has grabbed, at the same time as me, the last box. Unreal

http://wjz.com/topstories/local_story_266212513.html

It's the end of the world as we know it. :wink: :lol: :wink: :lol:

 

[goldsbar]

Am I a scientist? No, not even close.

Do I believe the data that says carbon is higher than it's ever been in recent geological history and there haven't been many massive volcanic eruptions in recent human history so that pretty much makes humans the cause? Sounds reasonable.

Do I believe that higher carbon = higher heat? Almost all experts do so I'll accept it until I learn otherwise.

Conclusion - humans are causing global warming. A decision made on limited information with limited knowledge. Something leaders in war, industry and politics (etc., etc.) have to do all the time. We'll never have all the answers. How long are you willing to wait?