Fan guns

[Sparky]

There was a lot of talk this season about all the new fan guns at Mount Snow. I’m not aware of any other mountain investing so heavily in fan guns. Why did mount snow go this route? Has there been a break through in this technology, do they use less water/power? Just how do the fan guns work compared to the more customary system?

 

[wa-loaf]

There was a lot of talk this season about all the new fan guns at Mount Snow. I’m not aware of any other mountain investing so heavily in fan guns. Why did mount snow go this route? Has there been a break through in this technology, do they use less water/power? Just how do the fan guns work compared to the more customary system?

I don't know that much about them and I'm sure others will chime in. But they don't require the big central air compressors which means the resorts can ditch the big diesels motors and it's one less set of pipes running up along the trails. That and they seem to pump out a hell of a lot of snow and fast.

 

[jack97]

Promotion and installation of fan guns is probably the result of new ownership, Peak Resorts.

When they reopen Crotched, they installed near 100 % snow making capacity and promoted how fast the fan guns can blow man made. IIRC, adding about 4- 6 inches on all the trails during one shift is acheivable, thus they can recover from a rain or ice event in short time.

Peak Resort is prolly doing the same promotion at Mnt Snow, show the public that they have the goods to provide great surface condition even during times when the weather is not fully cooperating.

 

[SkiDork]

If nothing else, they're a lot quieter...

 

[TheBEast]

My home hill, Berkshire East installed a large amount of these a number of years back. They can produce a better quality snow in a wider range of temperatures (given the right operator at the controls monitoring the output!!). In addition they are more energy efficient and as stated don't require the central air compressors and lines as each gun has it's own air supply on board. In my opinion any resort expanding snowmaking in coming years will be hard pressed not to go this route.

From my understanding at Berkshire East they even got the power company to kick in some cash for the guns since they reduced energy usage significantly.

The wave of the future is upon us. I think we would all say that the quality of snow we saw at Mount Snow this year was marketable improved, probably in large part to their new fan guns.

Being a little greener can have benefits!!

 

[deadheadskier]

What suprises me is this is not new technology. It's probably improved, but not new. I remember growing up skiing Ward Hill 25 years ago and they had fan guns back then.

 

[Newpylong]

Brodie mountain solely used them for years as well. But they were only carriage mounted and they had nowhere near as many as modern hills do nowadays.

With 250 Mount Snow will have quite a few next year...

 

[ERJ-145CA]

Here is a link with info on how snow is made including fan guns:
http://travel.howstuffworks.com/snow-maker.htm

 

[marcski]

I remember the BEAST having carriage mounted fan guns going back 20-30 years.

I believe fan guns require a relatively high voltage power supply for each gun, which is a capital cost required when installing these types of guns.

 

[mondeo]

Here's part of it: the diesel compressors might run at an efficiency of around 30%. A cogen power plant can be 60%. A 2x difference in the efficiency of power production will go along way towards overcoming the losses you take across the power lines, the additional electrical to mechanical loss, and overcoming the capital cost of the equipment, and the coal will be cheaper than diesel to start with. The other thing that was mentioned by the rep that we talked to in mid-April was that Mount Snow rents all their diesel compressors; going to electricity eliminates that cost as well.

 

[snoseek]

I Think I remember Saddleback using fan guns back in the 80's.


Can anyone tell me what the final product is like compared to traditional snow guns? better, worse, similar?

 

[ckofer]

From what I've experienced the snow seems lighter from the fan guns.

 

[vcunning]

Tim Boyd was quoted as saying the following in a recent local newspaper article:

Fan gun costs are initially expensive but Boyd said they save money because they are more efficient. “Fan gun air compressors cost about 40% of what it costs to run the diesel compressors,” said Boyd. “They convert more water to snow; they have a much longer throw and shoot 30% higher than air-water guns.”


Here is the whole article from the Deerfield Valley News (May 8-14th edition)

Mount Snow upgrades continue

Tim Boyd
By Christian Avard

WEST DOVER- The 2007-2008 ski season is over and according to Peak Resorts president Tim Boyd, Mount Snow did just fine. This marks the first season since ownership changed hands and now Boyd is determined to take the resort to another level.

Last week, Peak Resorts announced its snowmaking plans for next season. An additional 150 fan guns will be installed this summer. That brings their total to 251, the most in North America. The fan guns will cost approximately $5 million but more important, will save in energy costs, eliminate 16 diesel compressors used for traditional air-water guns, and save approximately 200,000 gallons of diesel fuel per year. “The fans have their own on-board air compressors and they’re electric. By adding more fan guns, we can eliminate all the rental diesels we had,” said Boyd. “Basically, you don’t have much of a carbon footprint because they’re not doing (the amount of) pollution the air compressors are.”
Fan gun costs are initially expensive but Boyd said they save money because they are more efficient. “Fan gun air compressors cost about 40% of what it costs to run the diesel compressors,” said Boyd. “They convert more water to snow; they have a much longer throw and shoot 30% higher than air-water guns.”

Boyd said the fan guns will be installed on Ridge, Meadow, Upper Nitro, Lower Titanium, Mine Shaft, Deer Run, Canyon, Lodge, and Lower Exhibition, and other locations. In addition, Peak Resorts will invest $1.4 million in painting chair lifts, improving locker rooms, and upgrading the Mount Snow Golf Course. However, snowmaking remains the number-one priority and given Mother Nature’s finickiness, Boyd said he can’t complain.

“We did a great job in snowmaking. The fact that Mount Snow was the first mountain to open top to bottom made the statement we were looking for: Snowmaking is going to be our top priority,” said Boyd.

The West Lake Project continues to move along. Boyd is aware of all the latest developments and said he expects it to be a long process but in the end, he believes state and local officials want Mount Snow to succeed. “Things are on track for where we want to go. We understand (the West Lake project) is a long-term project. It’s not going to happen overnight.,” said Boyd.

Overall, Boyd knows that not every winter may be as successful as the recent one. With increasing gasoline prices and a recession looming, Boyd realizes energy costs are only going up, not down. In the long run, Boyd believes fan gun technology can help Mount Snow keep costs down. “We spend about 75%-80% of our energy costs on snowmaking. These fan guns use 30%-40% of the energy that air-water guns use. You have to figure out ways to be more efficient,” said Boyd. “We’re doing this because we’re going to save more money. We can’t pass these costs onto the customers.”

Looking ahead, Boyd said Mount Snow will also undergo a revitalization of base facilities. Other than the Grand Summit Hotel and the Mount Snow Discovery Center, Boyd observed “there was not a modern building in the area.” If Mount Snow is going to compete with area resorts such as Stratton and Okemo, then Mount Snow will need to invest in new facilities. “Over time this is going to change. It’s not finished, but we’re working on the long term,” said Boyd. “Mount Snow is going to look a lot different in five-10 years because it has to. We’re not going to stand still.”

 

[mountainman]

Fan guns compare to Low E guns.

I know a few areas have gone to Low E guns that have air / water systems. Is there much difference between the two. Power companys give resorts with low E guns tax credits which use them. Could areas use electric air compressors instead of the diesel. How much of a savings are electric to diesel? I know to run the fan guns power has to be supplied to them. Most areas have to run power lines and power oulets to make this work. Tough days ahead for the industry to cut cost of snowmaking since everything was based on diesel fuel to run air compressors.

 

[drjeff]

I Think I remember Saddleback using fan guns back in the 80's.


Can anyone tell me what the final product is like compared to traditional snow guns? better, worse, similar?

Here's what my take this season was. First off, the area I grew up skiing primarily in the 80's, West Mountain in Queensbury, NY, was an "old school" fan gun mountain. They had the big old, noisy sled mounted Hedco fan guns whose product just about always was closer to ice than snow, especially before it was machine groomed MANY times.

Now fast forward until the current time. I'm a decade plus Mount Snow skier, and a have a ski house there, and on average, unless there's a newborn kid in my household, have skied there atleast 30 days a season for roughly the last decade. Mount Snow's air/water prduct that they make is very good, and that doesn't matter whether it's from some of the "older" ground based guns with ALOT of nozzle holes in them that they tend to use for base building condtions, or the newer air/water tower guns that tend to make a dryer snow.

When I heard about a year ago of Peak's 1st big fan gun purchase, I will admit to having some mixed feelings. The data of a higher conversion rate of water to snow appealed to me, especially given Mount Snow's current limited water supply, but I did have some flashbacks to the less than stellar product I grew up on in the 80's.

Then came this past November and my 1st experience with Mount Snow's "new technology" SMI fan guns. First off their noise level is very quiet, maybe 25% of the noise level of an air/water gun, to the point where you can actually stand right under one of towers that most of them are on while they're running and have a conversation at normal speech levels with someone! 2nd they make a much lighter, drier snow than most air water guns at most temperatures, and the fresh fan product actually skis like fresh powdery natural as opposed to the "styrofoamy" like texture that air/water guns put out the majority of the time. 3rd, the fans can through the snow a long way. Mount Snow had them this year on many wide trails, and even before the cats started pushing snow away from the fan guns towards the other side of the trails, the width of the skiing surface was close to twice as wide as on trails that didn't have fan guns this season(and that includes the trails that had air/water towers too). Lastly, the quantity of snow they produce. Plain and simple, on nights when they had fan guns going on some trails and air/water on others, the next AM it was clearly visible how much larger the piles from the fan guns were than from the air/water guns.

Bottom line, modern fan guns aren't anything like the fan guns of the 80's. They make a superior product to just about any air/water gun, and they do it more efficiently. If it wasn't for their $20,000 or so a piece price tag, I bet you'd see them in alot heavier use all across ski country.

 

[Vinny]

(snip)....

When I heard about a year ago of Peak's 1st big fan gun purchase, I will admit to having some mixed feelings. The data of a higher conversion rate of water to snow appealed to me, especially given Mount Snow's current limited water supply, but I did have some flashbacks to the less than stellar product I grew up on in the 80's.

Then came this past November and my 1st experience with Mount Snow's "new technology" SMI fan guns. First off their noise level is very quiet, maybe 25% of the noise level of an air/water gun, to the point where you can actually stand right under one of towers that most of them are on while they're running and have a conversation at normal speech levels with someone! 2nd they make a much lighter, drier snow than most air water guns at most temperatures, and the fresh fan product actually skis like fresh powdery natural as opposed to the "styrofoamy" like texture that air/water guns put out the majority of the time. 3rd, the fans can through the snow a long way. Mount Snow had them this year on many wide trails, and even before the cats started pushing snow away from the fan guns towards the other side of the trails, the width of the skiing surface was close to twice as wide as on trails that didn't have fan guns this season(and that includes the trails that had air/water towers too). Lastly, the quantity of snow they produce. Plain and simple, on nights when they had fan guns going on some trails and air/water on others, the next AM it was clearly visible how much larger the piles from the fan guns were than from the air/water guns.

Bottom line, modern fan guns aren't anything like the fan guns of the 80's. They make a superior product to just about any air/water gun, and they do it more efficiently. If it wasn't for their $20,000 or so a piece price tag, I bet you'd see them in alot heavier use all across ski country.

My wife and I own a quarter share at the Grand Summit and put in many days per season at Snow. We totally agree with Dr. Jeff. It's not imagined either. Many times we'd be heading down a trail saying, "the snow is really great here", not knowing why, only to see the fan guns further down. This has happened a number of times. The snow clearly skis better.

I also don't think the noise factor is given enough weight. I can't stand to be on a trail with the older guns. The noise is totally against the whole skiing mindset (at least mine). I think the fan guns are great for the noise reduction alone. In the same vein, I also can't stand it when mountains, in a lame attempt to be hip, start blasting music over crappy speakers. I prefer silence to any music, but if they can't invest in great speakers, then give it a rest.

 

[Newpylong]

There was no comparison in snow product this year at Sneaux compared to year's past. Remarkably better...

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I don't think there are many major resorts, if any, that still power their systems with deisel. Vermont banned them years ago due to CO2 emmissions.

 

[bigbob]

I don't think there are many major resorts, if any, that still power their systems with deisel. Vermont banned them years ago due to CO2 emmissions.

Killington rents a slew of IR 1600 CFM diesel compressors. You can see them lined up at bottom of Bear Mtn and at Snowshed. These are cleaner burning engines than in the past and now must use Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Killington rents a slew of IR 1600 CFM diesel compressors. You can see them lined up at bottom of Bear Mtn and at Snowshed. These are cleaner burning engines than in the past and now must use Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel.

Thanks for the info....I remember it was mentioned awhile back on killingtonzone that they were removed at the end of snow-making season. I thought they were talking about diesel powered back-up generators. I did some quick research to see if I could find which resorts aside from kmart still use them. I did notice this little ditty at encyclepedia.com, " The diesel generators at Vermont's Killington Ski Area, for instance, have made that resort the single biggest stationary air polluter in the state".

I did happen on some interesting info about the National Forest Ski Area Permit Act(NFSAP) of 1986 passed by Congress to make the permit process easier for resorts within NF's to get permits. The use of diesel power was a part of that discussion. It contains alot of info regarding several battles between ski resorts and environmentalists when resorts were trying to expand. Sugarbush and Loon were just a few mentioned.