Ginn Resorts: Burke Development on Hold

[thetrailboss]

Burke Mountain's Bridgemor Project is on hold for now. Ginn has asked the town DRB to postpone any review for at least 90 days.

[McGuire] said Thursday he would not call delaying more hearings "a slowing down, but a re-evaluation," of the project plans in light of the economic conditions.

Most disturbing is this comment:

Ginn has had problems throughout the country, including in Florida, where the company recently relinquished ownership of several properties to creditors due to defaulting on loans. That situation, a national Ginn spokesman said a month ago, would not have an impact on the planned Burke expansion.

Whoa. Just when we thought that Burke had stable owners. This is not good news.

The article.

 

[ctenidae]

http://www.gotoby.com/news/Ginn_Company_Bankruptcies.htm


Zoiks- 5 properties.

 

[billski]

Burke Mountain's Bridgemor Project is on hold for now. Ginn has asked the town DRB to postpone any review for at least 90 days.


Most disturbing is this comment:


Whoa. Just when we thought that Burke had stable owners. This is not good news.

The article.

This is classic corporate speak. "We have not changed our plans at this time." is corporate speak for "but we reserve the right to entirely change our tune tomorrow morning."

 

[ctenidae]

This is classic corporate speak. "We have not changed our plans at this time." is corporate speak for "but we reserve the right to entirely change our tune tomorrow morning."

"...or later this afternoon. Hell, the plans may have changed as we made that statement. It's all very fluid at this time."

 

[billski]

"...or later this afternoon. Hell, the plans may have changed as we made that statement. It's all very fluid at this time."

You can never accuse them of lying.

However it will take a few extra rags to wipe up all the grease:angry:


If they could just come out and say, "hey, the economy is rough. We're nervous too." but that would be too forthright, eh? I know if it was my company, I would be rethinking big investments right now, for fear of not having buyers.

 

[Geoff]

Given the uncertainty in the economy, I'd be amazed if there were any significant resort projects kicked off in the next couple of years. Nobody is going to be able to get financing.

 

[thetrailboss]

Wonder if K-Mart's village will proceed.....

 

[Geoff]

Wonder if K-Mart's village will proceed.....

Last I heard, SP Land is going to move ahead with getting a PUD for the project. By the time they get that and the Act 250 permits (I'd guess it will take 2 to 4 years), the economy is likely to have corrected back. The Texas money guys who own the land probably can't sell it to a developer until the permitting is lined up. In Vermont, getting permits is fairly high risk. They thought they had the land sold to Centex a few years ago but Centex pulled out. They're saying that they are in it for the long haul but I just don't believe it.

If I were the town, there's no way I'd approve what they're talking about. It's sprawl on an epic scale where they build something on every square inch of land. The town should do what happened at Stowe and set aside 90% of the land as green space and keep the housing high density.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Wonder if K-Mart's village will proceed.....

This goes for other projects as well:

Loon's South Peak
Bretton Woods' $100+ million dollar development
Jay Peak's West Bowl expansion
Saddleback's expansion

There has been a lot of resort property expansion over the last five years. With the current economy I think a lot of this stuff will have to be put on hold. The resorts that are ready to charge forward again after the recession is over will be the big winners.
Burke has always been behind the trend. It seems as though everytime the owners are ready to do something big, the economy tanks and grand plans are never accomplished.
If Ginn can hold on through this down economy. Run the resort as is (it is going to keep losing money, but not a lot in the grand scheme of things) and be ready to move forward (permits, zoning, plans, etc all in place) when the housing market begins to right itself. Burke could be at the forefront to cash in on the new wave of second/third home buyers.

Note: If Ginn does invest in any improvements at the mountain, I still think they need the high speed quad to the summit. That is the one investment that I can see increasing the number of skier visits. Personnally,I can do without it, however, more often than not, on weekends I've been riding the chairlift up the mtn by myself (we're talking less than 500 people actively using the mtn :-o). That cannot be a sign of a sustainable income for the Burke.

 

[Glenn]

Whoa. Just when we thought that Burke had stable owners. This is not good news.

I'm starting to think part of the Burke mistique is "we may have new owners next week...then another the week after." Seems like that place is always swapping hands...or there are rumors of it. I hope they can weather this out and move ahead with their plans. It looked like a really neat expansion.

 

[soulseller]

I've never been to Burke and its only recently showed up my radar. Do you have a link to the proposed expansion?

 

[thetrailboss]

Burke has always been behind the trend. It seems as though everytime the owners are ready to do something big, the economy tanks and grand plans are never accomplished.
If Ginn can hold on through this down economy.

Very true. I will add that they have always had big ambitions, but no capital to do it. In 1977 or so Gloria Chadwick had a masterplan all drawn up for the mountain, and obtained a VEDA grant to implement the first phase(s), which resulted in the Sherburne Base Area (and infrastructure) and the first snowmaking on the "west side."

But then the 1980's recession hit and the Kitchell/Chadwick era came to an abrupt end...in bankruptcy, namely for defaulting on said VEDA loan.

Then came the next era, which focused on the condos and the Willoughby Quad. That owner (forgot his name) ran the place in the mid-1980's and gave up in 1988 or so.

We won't discuss the Bear Kingdom Ltd. years (Schaffer). 1990-1995 was the era when the German film mogul ran the place as a money laundering scheme. Wonder if Interpol got to him....

As to the Northern Star era, 1995-2000, it was one of the best chances. Andy Holmes had the right idea...and some deep pockets. Major snowmaking upgrades and some terrain modifications. Infighting in the partners, personal problems for the manager, as well as bad weather and defaulting on loans ended that era (noting any recurring themes?). In 2000 Northern Star was attempting to get financing for a modestly priced Inn/hotel to house weekenders.

Since 2000, ownership has been steady and the resort has had at least one year in the black, and several years of modest losses. Burke 2000 LLC stablized things; Ginn took over and began actual improvements to snowmaking and lift and trail infrastructure; other work is on hold until the real estate plan is finalized. The ski area is only one aspect of the project...and right now is just being run day-to-day. It is not the focus.

What has remained constant is the master plan (with some alterations) except for Ginn's ambitious land purchasing program in the summer of 2005 that added lots of additional adjoining lots.

This is a rant....

Run the resort as is (it is going to keep losing money, but not a lot in the grand scheme of things) and be ready to move forward (permits, zoning, plans, etc all in place) when the housing market begins to right itself. Burke could be at the forefront to cash in on the new wave of second/third home buyers.

Yes, this has been the status of the place (from my perspective) for a while; resort is essential on cruise control (or life support).

Note: If Ginn does invest in any improvements at the mountain, I still think they need the high speed quad to the summit. That is the one investment that I can see increasing the number of skier visits. Personnally,I can do without it, however, more often than not, on weekends I've been riding the chairlift up the mtn by myself (we're talking less than 500 people actively using the mtn :-o). That cannot be a sign of a sustainable income for the Burke.

Overdue improvement. As much as I hate to admit it, if a summit HSQ was in, more skiers and riders woud consider it to be a legit resort worth a visit. The lift would make no difference to lines or traffic (except shortening the lift ride) or even lift capacity.

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. Build it after or before they come? One issue is if there is enough acreage/snowmaking to handle skiers making more runs during the day. In bad years the terrain is limited. In peak season with everything open, there is more than enough terrain. Last season's terrain widening on Willoughby, etc. was done to handle more traffic.

 

[thetrailboss]

And yes, you could consider Burke as a place that has changed hands many times, but so has almost all other places (namely Bolton Valley) with few exceptions.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I've never been to Burke and its only recently showed up my radar. Do you have a link to the proposed expansion?

Master Plan:
http://www.skiburke.com/images/PDF's/Overall%20Master%20Plan.pdf

Base Lodge Detail:
http://www.skiburke.com/images/PDF's/Sherburne-Service%20Area%20Plan_C-2011.pd

Mid-Lodge Detail:
http://www.skiburke.com/images/PDF's/Mid%20Burke%20Grading%20Plan%20with%20New%20Lift%2011-12-081.pdf

New "Cutter" Base area:
http://www.skiburke.com/images/PDF's/Cutter%20Site%20Plan.pdf

Great history of the mountain Trailboss. Since I didn't really start skiing until Burke LLC took over in 2000 I'm not all that familiar with the mountains history previous to Northern Star.

 

[soulseller]

Thanks NEK, it was your pics in the NASIOC post that brought Burke to my attention.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

makes sense..the 2nd home market is drying up now as alot of baby boomers have to work longer..

 

[from_the_NEK]

Thanks NEK, it was your pics in the NASIOC post that brought Burke to my attention.

Glad I could help :beer:

It is really amazing how many people overlook Burke. People think it soooo far away and it really isn't. Of course it really isn't a fashion show mtn like Loon either which I think a lot of the city folk :lol: are into (all about the "look" of skiing/riding and not so much the doing). They can't brag to their friends about "I skied Burke this weekend" cause their friends just look at them and say "where did you go?"

 

[riverc0il]

I had predicted this happening when the recent news of Ginn pulling out of PGA Sponsorship was announced. Ginn is a resort operator very closely tied to the golf industry. I only started playing golf this year, but I have quickly noticed the buzz in the golf world is that the industry is struggling. More courses are closing than opening, fewer rounds are being played, etc. The well is drying up with the real estate issues and recreation is often the first thing to go when the economy tanks. Maybe those Wall Street millionaires don't need a brand new second home. Or they can find an older one on the cheap that someone else is trying to dump at a loss for quick cash to cover their debts or lost job or what ever.

Any ways, Burke Mountain is not the focus of the proposed expansion. A four season world class resort with a golf course as its main feature and lots of real estate is the focus. Golf is drying up and along with it the resort industry and new home and condo sales. I doubt the expansion will continue until after the economic downturn lifts up a bit and people start buying second homes en masse again. When Burke originally was bought by Ginn, I had wondered if over saturation of new markets would be a problem with so many new proposed mountain developments coming online or being proposed (Stowe, Jay, Saddleback, Burke, Tenney, Sugarbush, Loon, etc.). Seems like the economy tanking made saturation the default whether or not it would have become an issue or not.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

If I were the town, there's no way I'd approve what they're talking about. It's sprawl on an epic scale where they build something on every square inch of land. The town should do what happened at Stowe and set aside 90% of the land as green space and keep the housing high density.

I don't think 90% was dedicated to green space. Before the massive Spruce base area was started a bunch of townhouses, new slope with chairlift and snowmaking was built above the base area, 18 hole golf course was built and as you drive into Spruce Peak lots of street developement with several single family housesites were developed with some homes built.

I agree that developement is currently somewhat stifled but the government has thrown over a trillion dollars in 2 programs to unfreeze the credit crunch and with LIBOR way down money is starting to flow. BTW, Sugarbush is moving ahead with Phase 2 of their Lincoln Peak Village developement this spring but it has been pared down abit.

 

[Phildozer]

If I was Burke Mountain, I'd be working on a backup plan for when/if Ginn dumps their holdings.

If they're losing golf courses in Florida, it can't be too long before they're dumping a ski area in Northern Vermont.