It's Official: Burke Has Been Sold to GINN

[thetrailboss]

Word on VPR this morning is that Burke was sold yesterday. Final signatures were made, the deal is closed. This is a thread to alert you to it...depending on interest and space, I may merge this into the Burke thread we have going...

More to come from me in a bit...

 

[thetrailboss]

THIS article details the deal including that there is new management at the mountain and the efforts to make it a four-season resort are once again on the burner.

 

[Geoff]

THIS article details the deal including that there is new management at the mountain and the efforts to make it a four-season resort are once again on the burner.

Four seasons? That'd be:

Winter
Mud Month
Black Fly
Fall Foliage

8)

 

[halfpintvt]

Burke Mountain Sold

According to an article in today's Business Section of the Burlington Free Press "Ginn bought the ski area for $3 million dollars. Development plans will likely cost in excess of $100 million and will include residential property and a golf course.

Ginn has invested between $4 million and $5 million in the mountain this year through an operating agreement with the former owners, and plans to invest an additional $5 to $7 million next year."

Cheers.

Think Snow and Ski Burke

 

[thetrailboss]

So here are some of my thoughts considering that it is now official and it has come and gone...I guess I'd consider this to be an open letter to Ginn and Crew:

Dear Ginn and Company:

Congrats on buying Burke. Us locals aren't really surprised--we figured out that you were interested and it's not because we're nosy, it is because we are really concerned about 'our mountain.'

I don't know much about your company. We here in the Kingdom only think of Florida as home of Disney and all of that stuff. Your website is kind of flashy and interesting, but I really can't get a grip as to what you're about, so I look forward to seeing it in your actions.

Up here things are more simple--neighbors help neighbors, town meetings are still how things are done, and though people are poor, they will share whatever they have to others in need. We welcome you.

Burke has quite a history and I'm glad that you've taken much time and care in noticing that. The trail guide and brochure really captures a lot of that heritage. I hope though that you learn from what other groups have done with Burke and how they have failed or succeeded. I only have so much time and space, so I will focus on one main point for you to consider: remember the locals.

Money does not seem to be an issue for you, which distinguishes you from others who have attempted to go about running the mountain. Mr. Dwinell did a good job, but he focused too much on real estate and not the skiing. Bear Kingdom, well, they did not care one bit about us and were only interested in money laundering. Northern Star was going along pretty well and offered lots of discount days, but they also seemed to ignore local interest and ideas in hopes of drawing up folks from outside the area. When the weather tanked, those 'flatlanda's' (as we affectionately call them :wink: ) would go out west or somewhere else and Burke would struggle. Then there was BMA, or 'Burke 2000.' They realized that the locals were an untapped resource. The community helped open Burke in 2000--something that was unheard of. Over 2,000 season passes were sold that season and locals felt like we were back home.

Since then, the mountain has been more open to us and our support, love, and ideas than ever before. This is all we can really offer you considering that up here we don't have a lot of money and in fact this devotion is what many of Burke's competitors lack and in fact are trying to re-manufacture. Please work with us to make things happen and keep those doors open. Remember that Burke's success in the past five years, which admittedly has been not fiscal success, is largely because of the fact that for once the owners realized the place of the mountain in the community.

They have kept the slopes accessible to hundreds and even thousands of local school kids and I hope you will do the same.

They realized that locals don't have lots of money to ski and have kept local discount days and some cheap afternoons to ski--on Sundays even--and I hope that you keep this.

When we had a question, we picked up the phone and spoke to a real person. I hope that this continues.

Burke remains much like the way it was when I first skied it (and learned to ski at Burke) and I hope that you keep it this way. It's character is unique and can't be recreated.

Think twice before cutting those glades into trails or bulldozing something over for new development. The draw of Burke now is the old school skiing and glade skiing that, in my opinion, surpasses places such as Jay.

And though you may love hearing us on some days and hate it the next, realize that our concerns are heartfelt and that when that weather does 'go south,' the locals are always there to show up and ski.

This will be the seventeenth year that I ski Burke and, ironically, the first that I will be a passholder. But it is not the first season that I have expressed my admiration of my home mountain. I am one of the few who sticks only a Burke Sticker on my car and who refers tens, even hundreds to my home mountain.

I am excited by the changes that have taken place and are about to but am also concerned about keeping Burke special.

Thanks for looking to our mountain and I wish you all the best this season and in the future. We want to work with you for the long haul.

You know how to get a hold of me...and don't be afraid to.

Yours in skiing,

TRAILBOSS

Burke Skier Since 1990

 

[LVNLARG]

Big money moving in sounds like a McMountain in the making to me.

 

[RIDEr]

Interesting stuff. It looks like they are also pursuring land in VAIL.

The company from what I read into it is looking to expand beyond their existing southeast coverage. Taking on a mountain such as Burke can certainly provide them with opportunities for bigger expansion in the future regarding Vail...

Hopefully, they won't turn Burke into VAIL though.

 

[riverc0il]

definitely an appropriate new thread given the final conclusion of the long in the works deal. i saw the headlines on the CalWreck this morning and wasn't surprised, the article did not contain any info that wasn't already known except that the deal is finally official.

well said trailboss. i think the innitial investment into the mountain infrastructure has been nothing short of fantastic. it seems like burke is on the road from being an unknown gem to being the pride of the northeast kingdom and a well known mountain that rivals some of the biggest names in new england. those of us that already ski there know it does.

my only main concerns are that all this investment comes at a cost. a cost that may not be covered by increased skier visits, real estate, and vacation pacakges. hopefully the skiing families will pick up the tab for what brought them to burke, but i fear that day tickets and season passes may increase significantly. hopefully this will not be the case and the extra stuff around the mountain can build burke up without making skiing burke more expensive. i think this is likely the big issue many locals would have.

the other issue trailboss hit on was the character and nature of the trails at burke. what makes burke so special is its terrain and trail network. there is ample room for growth and development without destroying the classic and character filled layout of burke as it is today. it simply can not be improved upon by changing the trails in any way. the only improvement of burke's trail network can be development of new trails.

cheers to ginn resorts. there is so much good happening for burke right now, it is hard to be fearful for those two items in the future. i remain cautiously optomisitic that all the changes at burke will be for the better.

 

[thetrailboss]

UPDATE: WCAX just reported the story and said that Burke was sold for $3 million. The company has plans and "$100 million" to invest in the ski area

A golf course is in the works....

 

[Tin Woodsman]

From what I've read, Ginn is involved in a massive real-estate/ski area development project near the backside of Vail, close to Minturn. They are actually already well advanced in the planning process for that project and it has nothing to do with Vail whatsoever.

 

[stomachdoc]

I've really enjoyed skiing at Burke over the past couple of years; the "old-style" trail network is lots of fun and the glade skiing is challenging.

The only way that ski area operators/developers make money is through real estate development; you're gonna see lots of that at Burke. The need to have a four season resort is imperative for succesful real estate development and I'm sure that a golf course is soon to sprout, along with some type of athletic complex (pool, tennis).

And yes, the ski area has to be attractive; people with $500k to spend on a condo will want "McMountain" features (it's a great term from another thread) including high speed quads (I'm sure that a summit HSQ will be done next year), reliable snow making to extend the season at both ends, and attractive base lodges with good food service.

I don't think that the current trail layout at the summit will support the skier volume/hr from a HSQ and that is likely to be the major change over the next few years. I certainly hope that GINN supports the continuation of BMA at the mountain and the local community. I don't think that GINN will look at lift ticket sales as their major ROI, so I wouldn't worry too much about "Strattonization" of the lift ticket prices just yet.

The real gamble for GINN is if the NEK can support a major resort. If gas prices trend back up and stay up I think that may be a significant issue for them, as Burke's a drive from anywhere. I believe that GINN has interval ownership properties in Florida and I wouldn't be too surprised to see them at Burke.

Of course, GINN may choose to back out as other's have done in Burke's past in which case we're left with our old school mountain and some improved infrastructure, without a colossal hotel where the Mid-Burke lodge once stood

 

[riverc0il]

If gas prices trend back up and stay up I think that may be a significant issue for them, as Burke's a drive from anywhere.

not true. burke is one of the closest of the larger VT ski areas to boston at just about three hours, less under ideal driving conditions. i would imagine 3 hours from the central mass area as well which is slightly further than some VT areas, but i believe many folks will believe it is worth the extra drive. no doubt ginn does as well.

 

[thetrailboss]

The only way that ski area operators/developers make money is through real estate development; you're gonna see lots of that at Burke. The need to have a four season resort is imperative for succesful real estate development and I'm sure that a golf course is soon to sprout, along with some type of athletic complex (pool, tennis).

Agreed for a mountain the size of Burke and its current location.

And yes, the ski area has to be attractive; people with $500k to spend on a condo will want "McMountain" features (it's a great term from another thread) including high speed quads (I'm sure that a summit HSQ will be done next year), reliable snow making to extend the season at both ends, and attractive base lodges with good food service.

Yes, Burke needs more of these people as does every other ski area. But my concern is that these people will come with them and bring their 'baggage' with them as they have done at Sugarbush...they want x,y, and z as well and complain about everything. It ends up being more of a mess having them then going without them...it is a Catch 22. To rely on these 'high rollers' is not a sustainable strategy IMHO. Look at Ascutney, etc.

I don't think that the current trail layout at the summit will support the skier volume/hr from a HSQ and that is likely to be the major change over the next few years.

Yes, the trails can't handle that HSQ currently...more snowmaking and other routes are needed.

I certainly hope that GINN supports the continuation of BMA at the mountain and the local community. I don't think that GINN will look at lift ticket sales as their major ROI, so I wouldn't worry too much about "Strattonization" of the lift ticket prices just yet.

Yes...I hope so as well :beer:

The real gamble for GINN is if the NEK can support a major resort. If gas prices trend back up and stay up I think that may be a significant issue for them, as Burke's a drive from anywhere. I believe that GINN has interval ownership properties in Florida and I wouldn't be too surprised to see them at Burke.

Of course, GINN may choose to back out as other's have done in Burke's past in which case we're left with our old school mountain and some improved infrastructure, without a colossal hotel where the Mid-Burke lodge once stood

I fear that the whole deal still sounds 'too good to be true.' Granted these are professionals and they aren't promising 'bavarian castles,' but the market IMHO seems similar to the late 1980's when there were similar hopes for Burke and it failed. I also hope that MidBurke remains a lodge...Let's hope things work out for all...

 

[LVNLARG]

When a company drops in a brand new high speed quad (before they even officially buy the place) to simply "Show them we're here and make it look like we're doing something" you can bet there will atleast be another 3 or 4 years of build out before even a jitter. It wouldn't surprise me one bit of 2 or more new high speed quad or better lifts get dropped in next summer. By the time they're done...the infrastructure will be so signifigant...that even if they throw in the towel there will be someone willing to take it on at a bankrupcy proceeding. Bottem line....It's going to be open for atleast the next 10 seasons....which..in this day and age ...is a good thing.

 

[thetrailboss]

When a company drops in a brand new high speed quad (before they even officially buy the place) to simply "Show them we're here and make it look like we're doing something" you can bet there will atleast be another 3 or 4 years of build out before even a jitter. It wouldn't surprise me one bit of 2 or more new high speed quad or better lifts get dropped in next summer. By the time they're done...the infrastructure will be so signifigant...that even if they throw in the towel there will be someone willing to take it on at a bankrupcy proceeding. Bottem line....It's going to be open for atleast the next 10 seasons....which..in this day and age ...is a good thing.

This is a good observation and I think things will depend on this season and what is done next season. But you are right--there has been more activity up there this past five months than there have been in the past 15 years combined. It is breathtaking to see how much is being done. Crews are working seven days a week up there to get ready for the season.

 

[thetrailboss]

I know that according to the AZ Challenge, Dave Gwatkin said that 'if' the mountain was sold, new HSQ to the summit in 2006. Almost guaranteed now. Will be interesting to see what other lift work is done. Another lift on lower mountain? What about a triple/double from MidBurke up the old Dipper Poma Route as Northern Star was considering in 2000?

 

[RIDEr]

Hopefully won't mess with the camp grounds. A few of us over the summer enjoyed some really good mountain biking trails a few hundred yards away.

As everybody has mentioned already, it is extremely important that the unique preservation that Burke has is not effected. If so, ensure the entire community is on board.

 

[thetrailboss]

Hopefully won't mess with the camp grounds. A few of us over the summer enjoyed some really good mountain biking trails a few hundred yards away.

EXCELLENT point RIDEr. In 1999 Burke had to 'move' one or two CCC era shelters for the Dipper Expansion. They also had to do some other work. Why? These are state owned public facilities....the Toll Road is as well. I don't know the status of the lower campsites....I think they are privately held by the ski area. The upper shelters are state owned bunkhouses including the old one off of Upper Bear Den.

If so, ensure the entire community is on board.

:beer:

You also mention indirectly the Kingdom Trails, which has really taken off and is now offering the new owners a serious opportunity and fighting chance to make Burke a real four-season destination. Those trails have drawn so much business....they just hit their stride a bit too late for the Northern Star regime (1995-2000).

 

[LVNLARG]

When a company drops in a brand new high speed quad (before they even officially buy the place) to simply "Show them we're here and make it look like we're doing something" you can bet there will atleast be another 3 or 4 years of build out before even a jitter. It wouldn't surprise me one bit of 2 or more new high speed quad or better lifts get dropped in next summer. By the time they're done...the infrastructure will be so signifigant...that even if they throw in the towel there will be someone willing to take it on at a bankrupcy proceeding. Bottem line....It's going to be open for atleast the next 10 seasons....which..in this day and age ...is a good thing.

This is a good observation and I think things will depend on this season and what is done next season. But you are right--there has been more activity up there this past five months than there have been in the past 15 years combined. It is breathtaking to see how much is being done. Crews are working seven days a week up there to get ready for the season.

I somewhat disagree. I don't think this winters revenues would matter one bit to this company. In fact...I would imagine they likely class this winter as simply the snowy season keeping them from working on the "build out" of the master plan. If they have 3 quads in next season and don't see a jump in visits there might be a little hmmming and hawwwing

 

[thetrailboss]

If they have 3 quads in next season and don't see a jump in visits there might be a little hmmming and hawwwing

I doubt that there will be a loss of skier visits...there is much enthusiasm and 'some' skiers only weigh a resort by the number of HSQ's. Burke is now in a new player in the big leagues IMHO.