It's Official: Burke Has Been Sold to GINN

[LVNLARG]

If they have 3 quads in next season and don't see a jump in visits there might be a little hmmming and hawwwing

I doubt that there will be a loss of skier visits...there is much enthusiasm and 'some' skiers only weigh a resort by the number of HSQ's. Burke is now in a new player in the big leagues IMHO.

Yup...they won't be expecting any spectacular jump in visits this year....more of a status quo and a "will this damn snow ever melt so we can get on with building our Mic (In reference to where they are from) 4 season resort" but they will hit the street hard with advertising and more new HSQ's for next season and expect a jump then. This years high speed quad is a "we're here" and a "lets get it in so we can take pics of people getting off a high speed lift at our resort with snow on the ground for our advertising for next season". Nice....a 3 million dollar photo op. 8)

 

[awf170]

Kinda off topic... but heres an idea for some terrian expansion. It would be called "west bowl". There would be one trail like east bowl. Then there is the atv trail used as a cut across then a runout I made for the glades. Then the rest would be gladed like east bowl. Yes I have too much free time :wink:

 

[RIDEr]

Not sure if it is off topic since they are looking to make this a wider resort. Right now, there is a trail off in that direction for mtn biking. There can certainly be an opportunity for expansion, but some secret stashes might then be revealed... TB or River would know that better than me though.

 

[teachski]

...i would imagine 3 hours from the central mass area as well which is slightly further than some VT areas, but i believe many folks will believe it is worth the extra drive. no doubt ginn does as well.

Not so, because we have few options on how to get to the highway. I am north of Worcester, maybe it's better from Worcester and places that have access to the Pike or other highways that lead to either 91, 95 or 93, but not from here. You've hears "can't get there from here." Well, that's where I live.

To get to the pike, any way I go, it's close to an hour, in the wrong direction. To get to route 2 it's about 1/2 to 3/4 hour minimum( all back roads). I can go to Gardner or Athol. From there I have 2 choices, Greenfield (better than an hour, not great road) or travel to 495 and up 95(about 1 hr, 20 min).

The best and shortest route it through Winchendon and Keene NH and into Brattleboro where I pick up 91. The total trip this way takes about 4 hours and 15 minutes traveling 65 - 75 MPH as weather and traffic permit.

Burke IS one of my favorite areas, however, and therefore worth the trip.

 

[riverc0il]

teachski, i was thinking of worcester or springfield, population centers off the highway. nothing else matters in terms of drawing crowds to the resorts, it's all about bringing in the metro folks.

TB or River would know that better than me though.

:lol:

i hope they lay off the east bowl area. the glades cut into that drainage are phenomenal. but to be frank, that location is primed for a lift. hopefully not too much damage will occur when ginn resorts puts the lift into the east bowl (speculation--i would estimate it will be the third HSQ after the summit lift). the east bowl is limitless for nice and steep expert terrain with great lines. terrain expansion has a lot of hurdles though since it's state park land and they would have to do the act 250 thing.

 

[teachski]

teachski, i was thinking of worcester or springfield, population centers off the highway. nothing else matters in terms of drawing crowds to the resorts, it's all about bringing in the metro folks...

:wink: I beg to differ, I matter, I matter a lot :wink:

There are quite a few skiers in my area too. We grew up skiing at the many little mom's and pops that used to be scattered around our hills. Most of the people my age that have kids, also have skiers and snowboarders. It isn't only about the "population centers".

BTW- Springfield is Western MA.

 

[riverc0il]

so teachski, you and your friends are going to buy up those condos, townhouses, and vacation homes and pump lots of money into Ginn Resorts to make their million dollar upgrade worth it? :roll: while day trippers are an important part of the business, we are not what makes the resorts the big bucks.

 

[thetrailboss]

Kinda off topic... but heres an idea for some terrian expansion. It would be called "west bowl". There would be one trail like east bowl. Then there is the atv trail used as a cut across then a runout I made for the glades. Then the rest would be gladed like east bowl. Yes I have too much free time :wink:

WHOA! This thread has taken off!!! Some really, really good points here and some great discussion.

AWF: YES Burke has had the West Peak in the plans for over 20 years...just no money. Until now :wink: The master plan has always been to run a lift from the top of the Sherburne Lift (the new lower mountain quad) up to that peak with some fall-line runs between Willoughby and a long run that would make the boundary. In fact, if you ride the J-Bar you can see at the end of the line is an entrance into the woods where that 'West Bowl Trail' was to spill out.

Other original plans included a lift from the old Stone House on BMA land up to the East Bowl Terminus and then cutting a sharp right to say where Powderhorn is. There has also always been plans to put a lift in the East Bowl and to cut some fall line trails there as well...it's looking like that may be coming soon as well :roll: Just hope they don't kill the golden goose.

 

[thetrailboss]

Here is another reaction from a former Burke Employee who posted in another site:

It's finally official! As a former member of the Burke Management Team (prior to the 2000 bankrupcy auction- I'm no longer in the ski biz), I'm well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the Mt. In my opinion, it offers some of the finest ski terrain in the northeast. It really does have it all...great learning terrain (perhaps the finest in New England), outstanding intermediate cruising terrain, the most underrated glades in VT. Burke offers a great mix of modern and classic trail construction. It's not the steepest terrain around, but the upper Mt. is a solid 1,400 vert. with very little run out. The new lift is just a sign of things to come. Rumor has it, a new HSQ for the summit has been ordered for next year. I would assume that the current summit lift will finally be relocated in the east bowl. During my time at the Mt., I really pushed for an additional fixed grip lift to service the Dippers (unload near the camp ground). Perhaps this is still being considered, as it would help close the gap on lack of lower intermediate terrain. Snowmaking improvements will be the icing on the cake.

So...what's the problem?? Location? Burke is actually an easy (albeit) long drive. Most VT resorts would give up their HSQ's to be 7 miles from the interstate! The problem is you have to drive by major competitors to go to Burke. It is almost impossible to convince the "average" MA/NH skier to drive the extra hour past loon, waterville, cannon, or Bretton Woods. This always blew my mind, as the typical Loon skier has no problem with spending that extra hour waiting in the gondola line! So...the daytrip market isn't an option. During my time with the MT, we never had trouble filling the condos and local inns during weekends and holidays. The problem is, not enough beds in the area. Not enough beds, not enough skiers! One of the first things you'll see the new ownership group start work on is real estate/bedbase. There is TREMENDOUS oportunity for real estate development in the Burke area! It is one of the last untouched resort areas in the Northeast. While I'm excited for the development, I'm concerned about the area losing its charm. The locals are very proud of their town, and can make things very difficult for operators of the Mt. Hopefully, the new owners will keep this in mind during their developement. New lifts, new snowmaking, some (not too much) trail work/redesign (the summit trail layout/liftline never made much sense to me), and more lodging options. If they do it right, they will have one hell of a resort. They better have one hell of a marketing budget to spread the word!

 

[riverc0il]

quote lifted from Snow Journal's NESLAP forums. trailboss, i think you should link or reference these items you are lifting from other forums. just my opinion.

 

[thetrailboss]

quote lifted from Snow Journal's NESLAP forums. trailboss, i think you should link or reference these items you are lifting from other forums. just my opinion.

I did mention above that it did come from another site. Thanks for throwing in the link though.

Here is another reaction from a former Burke Employee who posted in another site:

 

[Geoff]

When a company drops in a brand new high speed quad (before they even officially buy the place) to simply "Show them we're here and make it look like we're doing something" you can bet there will atleast be another 3 or 4 years of build out before even a jitter. It wouldn't surprise me one bit of 2 or more new high speed quad or better lifts get dropped in next summer. By the time they're done...the infrastructure will be so signifigant...that even if they throw in the towel there will be someone willing to take it on at a bankrupcy proceeding. Bottem line....It's going to be open for atleast the next 10 seasons....which..in this day and age ...is a good thing.

This is a good observation and I think things will depend on this season and what is done next season. But you are right--there has been more activity up there this past five months than there have been in the past 15 years combined. It is breathtaking to see how much is being done. Crews are working seven days a week up there to get ready for the season.

I somewhat disagree. I don't think this winters revenues would matter one bit to this company. In fact...I would imagine they likely class this winter as simply the snowy season keeping them from working on the "build out" of the master plan. If they have 3 quads in next season and don't see a jump in visits there might be a little hmmming and hawwwing

Three quads? Yikes!

If they really had a commitment to product quality, they'd be putting in high speed doubles or triples.

 

[riverc0il]

i meant referencing which site, but what ever.

 

[Greg]

i meant referencing which site, but what ever.

I know where you're coming from. I see news articles from this site copied and pasted all over. Granted, many of them are just press releases, but I've seen some articles that I've clearly edited or even partially written pasted elsewhere...

 

[thetrailboss]

When a company drops in a brand new high speed quad (before they even officially buy the place) to simply "Show them we're here and make it look like we're doing something" you can bet there will atleast be another 3 or 4 years of build out before even a jitter. It wouldn't surprise me one bit of 2 or more new high speed quad or better lifts get dropped in next summer. By the time they're done...the infrastructure will be so signifigant...that even if they throw in the towel there will be someone willing to take it on at a bankrupcy proceeding. Bottem line....It's going to be open for atleast the next 10 seasons....which..in this day and age ...is a good thing.

This is a good observation and I think things will depend on this season and what is done next season. But you are right--there has been more activity up there this past five months than there have been in the past 15 years combined. It is breathtaking to see how much is being done. Crews are working seven days a week up there to get ready for the season.

I somewhat disagree. I don't think this winters revenues would matter one bit to this company. In fact...I would imagine they likely class this winter as simply the snowy season keeping them from working on the "build out" of the master plan. If they have 3 quads in next season and don't see a jump in visits there might be a little hmmming and hawwwing

Three quads? Yikes!

If they really had a commitment to product quality, they'd be putting in high speed doubles or triples.

High speed doubles and triples :lol:

Well, the sad thing is that many people only assess a ski area by the number of HSQ's that are in place. I think that Burke can withstand having one HSQ running to the summit as it stands now. Anything else will have to be fixed grip IMHO.

I don't know about them moving the current fixed grip into the East Bowl. The pylons are over thirty years old...and the old lift is pretty tired. That said, they DID reuse the pylons of the double for the new HSQ and the chairs are being stored somewhere onsite. So they do want to use that double somewhere else...maybe lower mountain.

 

[madskier6]

not true. burke is one of the closest of the larger VT ski areas to boston at just about three hours, less under ideal driving conditions. i would imagine 3 hours from the central mass area as well which is slightly further than some VT areas, but i believe many folks will believe it is worth the extra drive. no doubt ginn does as well.

teachski, i was thinking of worcester or springfield, population centers off the highway. nothing else matters in terms of drawing crowds to the resorts, it's all about bringing in the metro folks.

BTW- Springfield is Western MA.

I live in the Springfield area (right off I-91) and it takes me 2 hours to get to White River Junction on a good weather day. Once I get there, the mileage sign says 72 miles to St. Johnsbury. I'm not sure how many miles Burke is from St. Johnsbury since I've never been but it obviously is further north. Therefore, from Springfield you're talking about a 4 hour drive (if not more when the roads are snowy).

From all I've heard, Burke is worth the extra drive. I'm looking forward to trying it out this winter. But it is definitely farther from Western Mass. than most other resorts except for maybe Jay Peak or Smuggs.

I view this as a positive, however, in that the massive throngs of people will probably not drive that far and therefore, Burke will not turn into a mobscene like some of the Southern VT mountains.

If that turns out to be true, we get the best of both worlds: infrastructure investment and upgrading from Ginn without massive crowds and a major character change for Burke. I realize that Ginn will need to recoup its infrastructure investment through real estate sales and 4-season amenities but hopefully they won't turn it into too much of a McMountain. I tend to be an optimist. :wink:

So when are you Burke guys scheduling the 2006 Burke AZ Outing for? :lol:

 

[Boardguy]

Three quads? Yikes!

If they really had a commitment to product quality, they'd be putting in high speed doubles or triples.

Can't you control uphill capacity of a HSQ (or any chair lift) by the number of chairs on the lift? Uphill speed is one thing but the amount of chairs determine the capacity. So yes a resort may pack on the chairs but IF a resort wanted to they could give you a fast ride and quality riding. I had "heard" that the new HSQ and Burke was going to run 60 or so chairs, don't know for sure. There did not seem to be too many chairs in the parking lot though.

 

[thetrailboss]

Three quads? Yikes!

If they really had a commitment to product quality, they'd be putting in high speed doubles or triples.

Can't you control uphill capacity of a HSQ (or any chair lift) by the number of chairs on the lift? Uphill speed is one thing but the amount of chairs determine the capacity. So yes a resort may pack on the chairs but IF a resort wanted to they could give you a fast ride and quality riding. I had "heard" that the new HSQ and Burke was going to run 60 or so chairs, don't know for sure. There did not seem to be too many chairs in the parking lot though.

Well, the lower HSQ had probably 60-75 or so from what I saw. As for the Upper, I don't know what they're going to do.

BTW...HERE are Burke's 2005 AZ Challenge Responses

 

[Boardguy]

[quote="thetrailboss]

Well, the lower HSQ had probably 60-75 or so from what I saw. As for the Upper, I don't know what they're going to do[/quote]

Me neither but my point was that the number of HSQs is not necessarily a scary thing.

 

[riverc0il]

Jeff, thanks for the correction on the springfield area. it seemed like a quicker drive when i did the i91 south thing to CT. i stand corrected in that burke is definitely over 3 hours for both centeral and western MA. burke is about 20-25 minutes from when you hit st.J on the highway in good weather.

no plans on a burke AZ gathering as of yet that i know of. stay tuned though, i'm sure once they get the place covered with snow there will be something in the trip events forum. since it is a drive for many folks, i say best to wait until at least late january when most of the terrain is open to make it worth everyone's drive. not that it isn't worth the drive when it's less than 100%... but if you want the real grand tour including the trees it's gotta be later rather than sooner.