K/Pico deal closed May 11

[jerryg]

http://www.peaks.shareholder.com/Ed...KI&CIK=1043432&FID=1104659-07-38882&SID=07-00

 

[millerm277]

And so ends possibly the worst chapter in Killington's history, I hope the next chapter is better....

 

[nycskier]

Story on the closing from the Rutland Herald:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070512/NEWS04/705120381/1002/NEWS01

 

[thetrailboss]

Story on the closing from the Rutland Herald:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070512/NEWS04/705120381/1002/NEWS01

I saw that...what was most interesting is the idea that they can wait until July to sell passes. Maybe out west, but not here...other places will eat your lunch!

 

[loafer89]

You can :smash: me all you want, but I get a bad feeling about the new owners and the benefits for Killington/Pico. I only have experience skiing at two of Powdr Corps resorts and Mount Bachelor went from a season that lasted into July, to one that now ends on Memorial Day weekend. The Las Vegas Ski And Snowboard Resort is an antique with a Hall double chair and a worn out base lodge.

I would at least expect to hear about improvments to the mountain such as painting of the rusty chairlifts or fixing snowaking that is falling down (Bear Mountain) and is inifficient, especially with next season being 6 months away, rather than plans to continue development plans for the village and adding yet more condos.

Goodbye October to June skiing at Killington RIP.

 

[Newpylong]

You can :smash: me all you want, but I get a bad feeling about the new owners and the benefits for Killington/Pico. I only have experience skiing at two of Powdr Corps resorts and Mount Bachelor went from a season that lasted into July, to one that now ends on Memorial Day weekend. The Las Vegas Ski And Snowboard Resort is an antique with a Hall double chair and a worn out base lodge.

I would at least expect to hear about improvments to the mountain such as painting of the rusty chairlifts or fixing snowaking that is falling down (Bear Mountain) and is inifficient, especially with next season being 6 months away, rather than plans to continue development plans for the village and adding yet more condos.

Goodbye October to June skiing at Killington RIP.

October to June skiing ended in 1997... the place has been run absolutely into the ground. Honestly, it would be very very difficult for these new owner's to do a worse job than the American Skiing Company. Painting of the lifts? Repair of inoperable snowmaking? These are all things that would be a vast improvement. I doubt you will see much done for next season.. but looking down the road this is going to be a very positive thing for the Killington regio.

 

[loafer89]

I bite my tongue and hesitate to say that that Powdr Corp could not be worse than ASC, anything is possible. I agree that Killington is a wreck, but I doubt that the new owners will be blowing snow in October to watch it melt in a few days, or waste large amounts of money to see the season pushed into late May/early June.

I was dismayed to read the article and see what the priority of the new ownership was, it upset me honestly.
New condo's and a village are the last thing that Killington needs, lifts that are of 21 century age and increased/modernized snowmaking are what is required as well as a commitment to use it. I would like to see a commitment, even long term to improve some of the skiing aspects, at least give us some eye candy to read about to hang on through the new owners phase.

I was suprised to learn that Powdr Corp owned The Las Vegas Ski And Snowboard Resort, what a dump that was. Hopefully that is not an indication of the tight ship frugality that they will use on Killington, if so I will not come back there and spend my money at an Okemo or Sundown where I can count on snow quality. As much as I like the terrain at Killington, without good snowmaking they are not worth the effort to drive there in a lean snow year like the start of last season.

 

[millerm277]

@loafer...the early season I agree with, but late season doesn't truely cost that much, especially for the PR benefit. That, and if you want to sell real estate, you're going to have to sink money into the mountain.

 

[loafer89]

@loafer...the early season I agree with, but late season doesn't truely cost that much, especially for the PR benefit. That, and if you want to sell real estate, you're going to have to sink money into the mountain.

I agree with that, which is why the last thing that the new owners would want to do is only mention real estate with the condition of the mountain and with the reputation of having a long season becoming a fading memory. It's like putting new rims on an old and rusted car, it looks pretty, but........

I think that the number one priority, just with leaving the mountain the way it is, is to extend the season somewhat back to where it was, perhaps striving to close in late May. The PR value of an 8 month ski season was tremendous to SKII, and it made them lots of money. I owned shares in the company for 6 years and it was profitable.

 

[threecy]

I don't think the objective for Killington should be lengthening the season...rather, it should be presenting a product that's comparable to Okemo. K-Mart is very rough around the edges right now, to say the least.

 

[millerm277]

I don't think the objective for Killington should be lengthening the season...rather, it should be presenting a product that's comparable to Okemo. K-Mart is very rough around the edges right now, to say the least.

Killington does not suit itself well to being an Okemo/Stratton type mountain, and it likely never will. Catering to that crowd will lead to disaster.

Killington is steep, and most trails on the mountain bump up fast, even with lots of grooming, there's nothing you can do to change that.

 

[kcyanks1]

I don't think the objective for Killington should be lengthening the season...rather, it should be presenting a product that's comparable to Okemo. K-Mart is very rough around the edges right now, to say the least.

I'd figure a lot of people ski Killington because it is *not* like Okemo.

 

[Newpylong]

I bite my tongue and hesitate to say that that Powdr Corp could not be worse than ASC, anything is possible. I agree that Killington is a wreck, but I doubt that the new owners will be blowing snow in October to watch it melt in a few days, or waste large amounts of money to see the season pushed into late May/early June.

I was dismayed to read the article and see what the priority of the new ownership was, it upset me honestly.
New condo's and a village are the last thing that Killington needs, lifts that are of 21 century age and increased/modernized snowmaking are what is required as well as a commitment to use it. I would like to see a commitment, even long term to improve some of the skiing aspects, at least give us some eye candy to read about to hang on through the new owners phase.

I was suprised to learn that Powdr Corp owned The Las Vegas Ski And Snowboard Resort, what a dump that was. Hopefully that is not an indication of the tight ship frugality that they will use on Killington, if so I will not come back there and spend my money at an Okemo or Sundown where I can count on snow quality. As much as I like the terrain at Killington, without good snowmaking they are not worth the effort to drive there in a lean snow year like the start of last season.

Don't judge so soon. No one has any clue what they plan on doing down the road or what their timeline is. It's all speculation.

Also, it almost goes without saying that without real estate development, things won't go forward. Nothing has been done on this front at Killington in a longggg time.

 

[jerryg]

Don't judge so soon. No one has any clue what they plan on doing down the road or what their timeline is. It's all speculation.

Also, it almost goes without saying that without real estate development, things won't go forward. Nothing has been done on this front at Killington in a longggg time.

How long has SP had development rights to Killington? WIll owning the whole thing now make it more likely they will build?

As for Powdr, I think that down the road, K is in great shape with these guys, but those who has cautioned are wise to. It should be pointed out that there probably is a pecking order as far as who will get allocated money for major upgrades and when. The good part about this is that you won't have a situation like when ASC put in a bunch of lifts at several different resorts all at the same time, (not that anyone was complaining when it happened) but it should be noted that PCMC has had some pretty big plans in the pipeline for some time and those were put on hold this past year. PCMC is the flagship and it should be expected that the whatever upgrades are needed there will come first.

 

[millerm277]

As for Powdr, I think that down the road, K is in great shape with these guys, but those who has cautioned are wise to. It should be pointed out that there probably is a pecking order as far as who will get allocated money for major upgrades and when. The good part about this is that you won't have a situation like when ASC put in a bunch of lifts at several different resorts all at the same time, (not that anyone was complaining when it happened) but it should be noted that PCMC has had some pretty big plans in the pipeline for some time and those were put on hold this past year. PCMC is the flagship and it should be expected that the whatever upgrades are needed there will come first.

Powdr doesn't own K right now, and is theoretically only responsible for running the mountain. However, it goes without saying that they will probably be in charge of advising SP Land on what needs to be done and such. But, that means the money spent on upgrades is not coming out of Powdr's pockets, so how quickly things get done is not likely to be because of them.

 

[jerryg]

Powdr doesn't own K right now, and is theoretically only responsible for running the mountain. However, it goes without saying that they will probably be in charge of advising SP Land on what needs to be done and such. But, that means the money spent on upgrades is not coming out of Powdr's pockets, so how quickly things get done is not likely to be because of them.

That's a good point, but if SP is going to provide the money for upgrades, why wouldn't they want whatever return is made on them? When a company leases land to run a ski resort, they don't get money from the owner to build. For instance in Winter Park. Intrawest has a lease to operate the resort and they are putting in their money in the hope that that money will be realized in capital down the road. I see SP as basically leasing the land for Powdr to run K. I know that Powdr will not own K, but they will get the proceeds from on-mountain revenue and that any loses that are incurred.

 

[millerm277]

That's a good point, but if SP is going to provide the money for upgrades, why wouldn't they want whatever return is made on them?

Obviously, they do, but my point is that the "pecking order" as you said probably isn't in effect here, since the money invested most likely isn't Powdr's.

 

[jerryg]

Obviously, they do, but my point is that the "pecking order" as you said probably isn't in effect here, since the money invested most likely isn't Powdr's.

I understand where you are comng from, but I have a hard time believing that SP will buck the trend of other leasing agreements and just give Powdr the money to do what they think would be best for the mountain. It is more likely that they sought someone who could make the mountain more financially viable and have the resort knowledge to run it efficiently.
I think that where we disagrees is with who is going to be fronting the money for improvements. You are in the camp that SP will provide the cashflow for Powdr to manage. I, on the other hand, think that this will be a traditional lease arrangement where SP makes their money from real estate and Powdr does so from skiing. SP obviously is not a resort operator, but they do know that Killington is a viable asset and something they want to hold onto for the time being. However, why not bring someone else in to sink money into it and leverage their investment. When SP is done developing, they could sell with a agreement for a percentage of the worth of K to go to Powdr.
At this point, we don't know who is going to put up the money for on-mountain improvements. My only point (and I may weel be wrong) is that if the money if coming from Podr, there will be a pecking order and PCMC will be at the top.

 

[Geoff]

I understand where you are comng from, but I have a hard time believing that SP will buck the trend of other leasing agreements and just give Powdr the money to do what they think would be best for the mountain. It is more likely that they sought someone who could make the mountain more financially viable and have the resort knowledge to run it efficiently.
I think that where we disagrees is with who is going to be fronting the money for improvements. You are in the camp that SP will provide the cashflow for Powdr to manage. I, on the other hand, think that this will be a traditional lease arrangement where SP makes their money from real estate and Powdr does so from skiing. SP obviously is not a resort operator, but they do know that Killington is a viable asset and something they want to hold onto for the time being. However, why not bring someone else in to sink money into it and leverage their investment. When SP is done developing, they could sell with a agreement for a percentage of the worth of K to go to Powdr.
At this point, we don't know who is going to put up the money for on-mountain improvements. My only point (and I may weel be wrong) is that if the money if coming from Podr, there will be a pecking order and PCMC will be at the top.

I think you are losing track of the fact that for SP Land, this is a real estate deal. They will fund improvements to the mountain they think are needed to maximize their real estate return. The Park City boys are operating the resort. It's not their money.

At the moment, the priority for SP Land at Killington is going to be mending relationships with the town (and with employees). Under ASC ownership, Killington was a business that could not be trusted. They'd promise things to the town and then fail to deliver. If there is no sign at all of fixing the infrastructure at the resort, the town is rightly going to conclude that it's business as usual and they will keep delaying construction of the village by denying permits.

 

[loafer89]

I do not think that the new owners will have much if any interest in extending the season at Killington beyond the more traditional November 15th - April 30th, just because of what Powdr Corp did to the season at Mount Bachelor. They used to ski into July, but under the new ownership ( I think from around early 2002) they now end it in late May. The mountain is closing on May 20th this year with a base of 65"-104".:-?

Being land development and ski area management people, I think we will see a slow improvement in the ski area facilities to generate real estate sales/profits, but I do not see any lift reconfiguration or construction to benefit a longer season. It would be nice to see the Killington/Pico interconnect finished as this would certainly draw people back, I know I would be one of them.

Having something new to showcase to skiers each season is a good draw to visit a resort. Under SKII management something new was done nearly every year, be it new snowcats, a new lift, glades or new trails, or improved snowmaking, something to show you care about skiing/riding. Killington has been stagnant while Okemo, Sugarbush, Stowe, etc have improved their facilities.