KILLINGTON: AZ Challenge 2009 Response/Feedback Thread

[Rogman]

A mea culpa, "we totally f'd up" might be satisfying, but it isn't going to happen. Very few CEOs are in a position to be that candid. Continuing to flog Nyberg for past transgressions gets nowhere. Better to look forward, and decide whether the direction Killington is heading is the right one. Clearly they've made changes and adjustments that are more in line with customers expectations. Greg didn't hand Nyberg any softball questions, and although no new ground was covered, I don't feel Chris was evasive in his answers. Keep in mind, he does not have as much freedom as Kircher, Win Smith, and others that participate in the AZ challenge have: he's not the owner; he works for Cumming.

 

[Bubbartzky]

maybe this should be their slogan for '09/'010.

:lol::lol::lol: You owe me one keyboard!

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Kudos to Nyberg for participating, but I wasn't impressed with the answers.

The Devil's Fiddle thing was a non-answer - "if it's a good snow year, maybe we'll make snow there, but that's someone else's call". Blah.

times 2

Chris Nyberg for President..

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Killingtons future looks so bright it needs to wear shades

 

[Bubbartzky]

A mea culpa, "we totally f'd up" might be satisfying, but it isn't going to happen. Very few CEOs are in a position to be that candid. Continuing to flog Nyberg for past transgressions gets nowhere. Better to look forward, and decide whether the direction Killington is heading is the right one. Clearly they've made changes and adjustments that are more in line with customers expectations. Greg didn't hand Nyberg any softball questions, and although no new ground was covered, I don't feel Chris was evasive in his answers. Keep in mind, he does not have as much freedom as Kircher, Win Smith, and others that participate in the AZ challenge have: he's not the owner; he works for Cumming.

In my opinion they're moving in the right direction. They're beginning to understand the brand that developed over 45+ years and which ASC, through their lack of funds, screwed up. To the extent they've reversed their early decisions on operations, etc., they're indicating that while they might have been crazy, they're not stupid, even if they won't publicly acknowledge their screw ups. They're at least willing to acknowledge the importance of early and late season skiing and at least are beginning to talk about another lift to the peak that would get them back to being "firstest with the mostest". There is lots to disagree with on the village and parking but a lot of the SP Land plan stands a good chance of being changed under Act 250 review anyway. The interconnect would work wonders for marketing but they're obviously not as convinced of that as many others are and, being financial guys, they're looking at hard numbers for ROI and not yet convinced of the marketing value and increased paid skier visits that would result. From a marketing perspective, I expect them to return to Beast of the East or something like it in words, but they need to back it up with their actions. I'm encouraged, but time will tell...

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

:lol::lol::lol: You owe me one keyboard!

LMBFAO!!!!! Did you spill your drink..

 

[Bubbartzky]

LMBFAO!!!!! Did you spill your drink..

No, but I just about spit out a mouthful of soda when I read it. :lol:

 

[Tin Woodsman]

A mea culpa, "we totally f'd up" might be satisfying, but it isn't going to happen. Very few CEOs are in a position to be that candid. Continuing to flog Nyberg for past transgressions gets nowhere. Better to look forward, and decide whether the direction Killington is heading is the right one. Clearly they've made changes and adjustments that are more in line with customers expectations. Greg didn't hand Nyberg any softball questions, and although no new ground was covered, I don't feel Chris was evasive in his answers. Keep in mind, he does not have as much freedom as Kircher, Win Smith, and others that participate in the AZ challenge have: he's not the owner; he works for Cumming.

Be that as it may, a mea culpa would likely go a long way towards soothing relations with the locals who hold the key to the real money in the form of the Village. If they came out and said "We were hasty in some of our moves and the last 2-3 years have given us an appreciation for the Killington brand we didn't initially have" or something to that effect, I think it would help to create a fresh start. Even when they are starting to do the right things, they find a way to fuck up the communication. He just sounds like one of those disgraced juicing baseball players who won't just fess up and instead hide behind platitudes and lawyers. How can you like someone like that? I mean really - that whole bit about a late season having real marketing value is about as large an about face from their Year 1 plan as you can get. But no - it's really been the way they operate all along - it was just communicated poorly. Maybe Killington really was open into mid-May 2 years ago when they had plenty of snow in the Canyon and on Superstar, but they just forgot to tell anyone? That's the only "communication" problem that could possibly make sense.

 

[Geoff]

Be that as it may, a mea culpa would likely go a long way towards soothing relations with the locals who hold the key to the real money in the form of the Village. If they came out and said "We were hasty in some of our moves and the last 2-3 years have given us an appreciation for the Killington brand we didn't initially have" or something to that effect, I think it would help to create a fresh start. Even when they are starting to do the right things, they find a way to fuck up the communication. He just sounds like one of those disgraced juicing baseball players who won't just fess up and instead hide behind platitudes and lawyers. How can you like someone like that? I mean really - that whole bit about a late season having real marketing value is about as large an about face from their Year 1 plan as you can get. But no - it's really been the way they operate all along - it was just communicated poorly. Maybe Killington really was open into mid-May 2 years ago when they had plenty of snow in the Canyon and on Superstar, but they just forgot to tell anyone? That's the only "communication" problem that could possibly make sense.

The "real money from the village" goes to E2M/SP Land, not POWDR. That is why I worded my question as "Does KSRP support the SP Land plan to destroy your parking?" Since there is some cross ownership between the real estate and the ski operation entities, the answer that toes the party line could have been expected.

I'm sure that privately, any of the senior people at KSRP would admit that they really screwed up in their first year. The decline in business levels certainly couldn't have escaped their notice. As Rogman put it, "I've never seen a business plan that intentionally went out to lose market share." They're kind of screwed since a lot of those people will never come back. ...particularly in the Boston market where they have more alternatives with similar drive time and that Boyne 3 mountain season pass as competition. I get incredulous looks from people when I tell them that Killington is probably the best bet to find light crowding on the advanced terrain and lifts during a holiday period. If I were marketing the resort, I'd consider doing an "Us vs Them" with some photos of a few of the key lifts and base lodges on MLK or Presidents Day Saturday. Where you wouldn't be able to move at an Okemo, Loon, or Sunday River, Killington isn't bad. You just don't want to show people Snowshed or Rams Head or the K1 gondola since those are a disaster during holiday periods.

 

[Geoff]

What I found least convincing was his answer about doing things differently in retrospect. He said they'd make all the same decisions, but would have communicated them differently. What a load of BS - they've already rolled back half of their assinine decisions around lift operations, Pico, kids pricing, and operating principals (note how they now state that having a late season is important for market purposes). That's a complete 180 from where they were 2 years ago. I guess it's hard to say "we fucked up and didn't know what the hell we were doing", but his answer was like Baghdad Bob declaring victory as bombs were dropping on his head.

Finally, his answers on the Village and parking were entirely unconvincing. Geoff is as shrewd an observer on all things K-Mart as there is, and I didn't come away from Nyberg's response feeling better about their plan one iota. It sounds like SP Land wanted to go even further and POWDR had to beg and plead to soften the edges of a very skier-unfriendly plan

When POWDR showed up, they slashed the marketing budget down to practically nothing. They were invisible in the flatlands and they killed early & late skiing which have always been vital to promote Killington. The season length is now mostly back and they've hired a fancy-ass marketing firm. The decision they didn't change was to run lean. They didn't unfire all the locals who used to have full time jobs with benefits. They didn't put back amenities like waitress-served food at the Bear Mountain Bar. I doubt they'll be doing waitress-served food in the Barney Room in KBL very often this year. They didn't add the cross-trained staff to de-ice multiple lifts in parallel. I haven't seen any construction activity at Snowshed and Rams Head to better cope with their huge problem with families during holiday periods.

As an advanced skier and season pass holder, I kind of like the mountain with their current number of skier visits. I don't feel like I'm going to get run down like a dog. I can get a seat at the bar. Other than the K1 and the new lift, I never see much in the way of lines. I can deal with the running lean. The problem is that the big buck people who are the prospective buyers of village trophy homes will expect a higher level of service than the uber-lean POWDR is providing.

As far as the village goes, the consultant hired by the town used the words "Sprawl" and "Fortress Gated Community". I keep saying that the high density housing is in the wrong spot. It should line both sides of Snowshed so everybody gets ski-in/ski-out. The commercial space can go wherever since it's only 33,500 square feet. I'd intermix it with the reconstructed Snowshed and Rams Head lodges. No need to relocate roads or destroy parking. They can build a concrete snow bridge deck over the existing road by sinking the thing 10 feet or so. The town and the Act 250 permitting should come down hard on the sprawl. If you put up a couple hundred trophy homes on 1 acre house lots, the whole basin is going to get clearcut. That's Jerseying Vermont and can't be allowed. Stowe was required to set aside much of their land as greenspace. I think the same condition should hold for Killington. The town should vote next March to zone the parking lots as parking lots. That fixes the problem. We don't want some H.L. Hunt Texas Oil money people destroying the town and then running away. POWDR just operates the ski area. They don't own any land. This is Texas uncontrolled development vs Vermont anti-development law.

 

[Bubbartzky]

When POWDR showed up, they slashed the marketing budget down to practically nothing. They were invisible in the flatlands and they killed early & late skiing which have always been vital to promote Killington. The season length is now mostly back and they've hired a fancy-ass marketing firm. The decision they didn't change was to run lean. They didn't unfire all the locals who used to have full time jobs with benefits. They didn't put back amenities like waitress-served food at the Bear Mountain Bar. I doubt they'll be doing waitress-served food in the Barney Room in KBL very often this year. They didn't add the cross-trained staff to de-ice multiple lifts in parallel. I haven't seen any construction activity at Snowshed and Rams Head to better cope with their huge problem with families during holiday periods.

As an advanced skier and season pass holder, I kind of like the mountain with their current number of skier visits. I don't feel like I'm going to get run down like a dog. I can get a seat at the bar. Other than the K1 and the new lift, I never see much in the way of lines. I can deal with the running lean. The problem is that the big buck people who are the prospective buyers of village trophy homes will expect a higher level of service than the uber-lean POWDR is providing.

As far as the village goes, the consultant hired by the town used the words "Sprawl" and "Fortress Gated Community". I keep saying that the high density housing is in the wrong spot. It should line both sides of Snowshed so everybody gets ski-in/ski-out. The commercial space can go wherever since it's only 33,500 square feet. I'd intermix it with the reconstructed Snowshed and Rams Head lodges. No need to relocate roads or destroy parking. They can build a concrete snow bridge deck over the existing road by sinking the thing 10 feet or so. The town and the Act 250 permitting should come down hard on the sprawl. If you put up a couple hundred trophy homes on 1 acre house lots, the whole basin is going to get clearcut. That's Jerseying Vermont and can't be allowed. Stowe was required to set aside much of their land as greenspace. I think the same condition should hold for Killington. The town should vote next March to zone the parking lots as parking lots. That fixes the problem. We don't want some H.L. Hunt Texas Oil money people destroying the town and then running away. POWDR just operates the ski area. They don't own any land. This is Texas uncontrolled development vs Vermont anti-development law.

Well, not sure any consultant to the town said that but one of the local residents with a lot of experience in development said it at the first Planning Commission hearing. Unfortunately, the PC seems bent on approving a "Conceptual Master Plan" that includes development in Snowshed/Ramshead and KBL/Vail parking areas. Of course, the plan has little or no weight legally and they're not getting PUD approval as they originally requested. They're going to get ripped in Act 250 so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[bigbog]

late Winter mid-mtn temps

>If you put up a couple hundred trophy homes on 1 acre house lots, the whole basin is going to get clearcut. That's Jerseying Vermont and can't be allowed. Stowe was required to set aside much of their land as greenspace. I think the same condition should hold for Killington.....
________
In addition...wait and see what that does/would-do to the consistency of late-Winter/early-Spring temps halfway up the mountain.

 

[tjf67]

Do you work for the phone company or some other monopoly? That wouldn't be very smart if you're in a competitive business, which they most certainly are. Kudos to Nyberg for participating, but I wasn't impressed with the answers.

The Devil's Fiddle thing was a non-answer - "if it's a good snow year, maybe we'll make snow there, but that's someone else's call". Blah.

What I found least convincing was his answer about doing things differently in retrospect. He said they'd make all the same decisions, but would have communicated them differently. What a load of BS - they've already rolled back half of their assinine decisions around lift operations, Pico, kids pricing, and operating principals (note how they now state that having a late season is important for market purposes). That's a complete 180 from where they were 2 years ago. I guess it's hard to say "we fucked up and didn't know what the hell we were doing", but his answer was like Baghdad Bob declaring victory as bombs were dropping on his head.

Finally, his answers on the Village and parking were entirely unconvincing. Geoff is as shrewd an observer on all things K-Mart as there is, and I didn't come away from Nyberg's response feeling better about their plan one iota. It sounds like SP Land wanted to go even further and POWDR had to beg and plead to soften the edges of a very skier-unfriendly plan

Nope just saying. After reading it again I think he did tell you to shit in a hat in a politically correct way. I think they would be better of keeping three traps shut cause anything short of doing what you folk want is going to lead to crying. WAAAH.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

While were on the subject of "sprawl" in regards to the proposed village at K-mart, can somebody fill me in on how and why the area near bear mountain..........I think it is sunshine village aka "Sopranoville" got approved? Vermont seems very strict in regards to allowing such god awful developments. And does anybody here own one of those? If so what was the appeal?

That along with the cleared out area around the Grand Summit, Snowshed, golfcourse, and hotels makes killington very much an eyesore..........but I still love going there.

Killington is probably in the top 6 or 7 of best ski resorts as far as the east goes.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

.

Killington is probably in the top 6 or 7 of best ski resorts as far as the east goes.

Just barely and Sopranoville sounds cool..like North Jersey..

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Just barely and Sopranoville sounds cool..like North Jersey..

I guess I should have used something different then Sopranoville, as the area I am talking about is anything but cool, pretty shitty to be honest, especially when you it's in the mountains, not North Jersey.

 

[Geoff]

I guess I should have used something different then Sopranoville, as the area I am talking about is anything but cool, pretty shitty to be honest, especially when you it's in the mountains, not North Jersey.

So the village should be done in faux Italianate marble? Fish statues puking and cherub statues pissing into the snowmaking pond? For half of the customer base, they'd feel right at home.


Killington needs dense ski-in/ski-out lodging to be an attraction. You have to build it somewhere. On KZone, I put up a photo of Fanny Hill at Snowmass as my model for how I would do it. Line the bunny slope with high density housing so everybody has ski-in/ski-out. You can't build without environmental impact but you can at least minimize it by clustering it all together in one spot rather than sprawling it out all over the place.

This Snowmass image is cut from the sat image on Goggle Maps. I think this would work on Snowshed. Condos and anchor hotels. Some commercial space mixed in:

 

[JerseyJoey]

So the village should be done in faux Italianate marble? Fish statues puking and cherub statues pissing into the snowmaking pond? For half of the customer base, they'd feel right at home.


Killington needs dense ski-in/ski-out lodging to be an attraction. You have to build it somewhere. On KZone, I put up a photo of Fanny Hill at Snowmass as my model for how I would do it. Line the bunny slope with high density housing so everybody has ski-in/ski-out. You can't build without environmental impact but you can at least minimize it by clustering it all together in one spot rather than sprawling it out all over the place.

This Snowmass image is cut from the sat image on Goggle Maps. I think this would work on Snowshed. Condos and anchor hotels. Some commercial space mixed in:

Very few of the homes in your picture are truly ski in ski out. Probably less than 10%.

 

[Highway Star]

Wow this thread is boring.

 

[mondeo]

Yeah, I'm disappointed.