killington closing day - sunday 4/25

[bobbutts]

I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make, but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.

Proper decision for this month's bottom line, sure.
Proper decision given that they advertised the hell out of May 2 up until 3 days ago and marketed themselves as THE BEAST all year, I don't think so.

I think you and POWDR underestimate the value of goodwill lost with this decision.

 

[deadheadskier]

Economics not weather - yes. Bottomline, they're a private company, and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis. The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).

This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating). Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek). So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days. The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.

Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later, yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make, but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.

I don't think you'll find many that disagree with the economics behind the decision, especially if given a look at the daily P&L's. It is a good financial decision to close. It was also a bad business decision to market the hell out of May 2nd.

 

[oakapple]

Proper decision for this month's bottom line, sure.
Proper decision given that they advertised the hell out of May 2 up until 3 days ago and marketed themselves as THE BEAST all year, I don't think so.

The May 2nd advertising always had the caveat, "conditions permitting." The dispute is over what the conditions needed to be for the mountain to remain open. There are always some skiers who will show up under practically any conditions where snow is present. Are there enough of them to justify keeping the mountain open? Probably not.

I think you and POWDR underestimate the value of goodwill lost with this decision.

I think it's also possible that some people here are overestimating it.

 

[Vortex]

edit never mind.

Hope all this talk gets K to open up for the last weekend.

 

[frankm938]

wow, 9 pages about killington closing early. i bet if greg combined every other mtns closing day threads, it wouldnt add up to 9 pages.
it looks like i got my answer as to why killington gets such a hard time when they do things and other resorts seem to get a pass. killington markets themselves as the "beast". and the management doesnt communicate well with its customers.
i never realized how much this mattered to people.
for me, i choose a ski area based on terrain variety, snowfall, moguls, trees and snowmaking. how they market themselves or the management communication has no impact on my skiing. if those things (marketing ect...) are important to you, then maybe killington isnt the resort for you. if you only care about the skiing, then killington is a great way to go.
i feel like i got my money worth from my season pass this year and plan on buying one again next year. thats not to say there arent some things i would like to change about the place... the length of the season just isnt one of them esp. when other resorts closed before they did

 

[Riverskier]

Economics not weather - yes. Bottomline, they're a private company, and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis. The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).

This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating). Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek). So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days. The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.

Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later, yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make, but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.

Dr. Jeff- You aren't addressing the point, or my point anyway. I doubt that most anyone would dispute that closing makes sense from a profit/loss standpoint. Most ski areas close due to economic reasons and not snow conditions, and though many skiers don't like this, it clearly makes sense from a business standpoint. However, in this case Killington sold passes on the premise that they would operate through May 2nd conditions and weather permitting. Yet now they are closing prior to May 2nd due to economic reasons, and not conditions or weather. Can you actually make an argument that this is acceptable? If they wanted flexibility they should have said conditions, weather, and business levels permitting, or not picked a specific date and used something vague like well into the Spring. I doubt there is much of a case legally, as conditions and weather permitting could be interpretted many different ways, but it doesn't make it any less misleading or wrong.

 

[drjeff]

Dr. Jeff- You aren't addressing the point, or my point anyway. I doubt that most anyone would dispute that closing makes sense from a profit/loss standpoint. Most ski areas close due to economic reasons and not snow conditions, and though many skiers don't like this, it clearly makes sense from a business standpoint. However, in this case Killington sold passes on the premise that they would operate through May 2nd conditions and weather permitting. Yet now they are closing prior to May 2nd due to economic reasons, and not conditions or weather. Can you actually make an argument that this is acceptable? If they wanted flexibility they should have said conditions, weather, and business levels permitting, or not picked a specific date and used something vague like well into the Spring. I doubt there is much of a case legally, as conditions and weather permitting could be interpretted many different ways, but it doesn't make it any less misleading or wrong.

I think I made my arguement with my last sentence stating that the descision they made was a RATIONAL one, not an EMOTIONAL one. And in this case, economics has to play into the equation, as unlike the gov't, Powdr CAN'T operate in a loss situation for an extended period of time and still be viable

 

[drjeff]

They opened this fall only on weekends for the first 2 weeks. They could just as easily run the last 2 weeks weekends only rather than close.

Apples and oranges here. In the fall, going weekends only has the promise of high profit times (winter season) ahead, so short term operational losses are within reason. Now in the spring, going one extra week, with the food and beverage costs, extra staffing (although I'd bet that there's not too many hourly/seasonal folks staffing things now), electrical expenses, probably some extra diesel costs to maintain the run-outs, etc - just before you're headed into an extended run of low profit times isn't as acceptable to the balance sheets, since you won't see the daily losses made up anytime soon.

I'm not saying on an emotional level that I agree with the descision, but sometimes on a business level, the correct desicision isn't always the popular (or easy) one to make

 

[drjeff]

The May 2nd advertising always had the caveat, "conditions permitting." The dispute is over what the conditions needed to be for the mountain to remain open. There are always some skiers who will show up under practically any conditions where snow is present. Are there enough of them to justify keeping the mountain open? Probably not.


I think it's also possible that some people here are overestimating it.

Bingo! I think that it's a safe bet that if the consumer who didn't have a K full season pass this year, but bought the spring pass since their "regular" mountain was closing early hasn't cought their next years pass yet, that this descsion won't weigh too much on them about if they'll buy a full K pass next year or go back to their regular mountain, since after all their regular mountain more than likely opened later and closed earlier than K did.

I know that we'll never see the data, but I'd bet that even if K stayed open 1 more week, that the conversion rate from spring pass holder to 2010-2011 K full season pass holder wouldn't be that great, and this action likely won't decrease those numbers very much (if at all)

 

[bobbutts]

The May 2nd advertising always had the caveat, "conditions permitting." The dispute is over what the conditions needed to be for the mountain to remain open. There are always some skiers who will show up under practically any conditions where snow is present. Are there enough of them to justify keeping the mountain open? Probably not.


I think it's also possible that some people here are overestimating it.

The thing is we don't know what conditions will be on the 1st weekend in May. They are basing the decision on a long-range weather forecast. If you follow weather at all you know how unreliable these are. We do know there's a substantial base left on SS that should, by by most accounts, survive until May 2.

I believe that they simply have much lower skier visits than expected this spring and decided to pull the plug based on that. I also wonder how many people actually bought their spring pass, wouldn't surprise me if it was very very low. That may have factored in too.

 

[Black Phantom]

Economics not weather - yes. Bottomline, they're a private company, and I think that it's safe to say that they're looking at the books on basically a daily basis. The reality likely is that they haven't had a day where day ticket sales + food and beverage revenue have shown a net daily profit in since the weekend of the 10th/11th given the poor weather conditions of last weekend, and the almost daily reports on Kzone of the place being empty mid week (and last weekend).

This weekend, given a good weather forcast, they'll likely make money (even with people taking away from the food and beverage revenue with their parking lot tailgating). Then, iffy long range forcast for next week (remember even with good weather now it's still empty midweek). So potentially they could be looking at a run from April 10/11 to May 2nd where their daily books might show a profit for at absolute best 50% of those days, but more likely about 25% of those days. The descision to close gets easier and easier based on the numbers.

Is this somewhat similar to their opening fiasco this year when they insinuated that they'd get open for the weekend early in the week, but then couldn't make it happen and had to announce they weren't opening a day or 2 later, yup, sometimes that's how business goes and I'm sure that the descision on an emotional level wasn't easy to make, but on a rationale one, it was the proper one to make.

The loss of the concession business is kind of a joke. The food is marginal at best and I'd speculate that not many "regulars" eat their "product".

Killington most likely furloughed many of their staff which is helped drive this decision. Having SSQ closed Friday pm and Saturday am is a clear indication that they just do not have staff with experience capable of running the mountain.

Regarding the early season chest thumping from K marketing- this is the same exact thing, perhaps worse. Pounding their chests all season with their "May 2" business = FAIL.

 

[Riverskier]

I think I made my arguement with my last sentence stating that the descision they made was a RATIONAL one, not an EMOTIONAL one. And in this case, economics has to play into the equation, as unlike the gov't, Powdr CAN'T operate in a loss situation for an extended period of time and still be viable

The rational decision would have been to stay open until May 2nd conditions and weather permitting, as people bought Spring passes based on that premise. A large resort operator (or anyone with any knowledge of the ski industry) should have the foresight to know that staying open until May 2nd could come at a loss, and should have carefully considered that prior to making a committment to their customers. I guess I have made my argument too, so we will have to repectfully disagree.

 

[big_vert]

Wow you guys are even thicker than usual -

"Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season...based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note".

Get over it already- get a life! K-Mart's closing this weekend, due to, as they said before weather NOT PERMITTING. Is there business in this decision - probably - but just get over yourselves and your petty little problem, and (try to) get on with your lives and accept that K-Mart will be closed.

A week from now (or next season) will anyone remember or care when they closed - F no, so while your lives are apparently destroyed about having a WOD open for one more week, just find a way to try to survive - OK?.

If you want real skiing and a guarantee of real skiing and snow, go to Snowbird or Whistler, otherwise find something a little less petty to have your little snit about.

Gawd, what losers.

 

[bobbutts]

Wow you guys are even thicker than usual -

"Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season...based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note".

Get over it already- get a life! K-Mart's closing this weekend, due to, as they said before weather NOT PERMITTING. Is there business in this decision - probably - but just get over yourselves and your petty little problem, and (try to) get on with your lives and accept that K-Mart will be closed.

A week from now (or next season) will anyone remember or care when they closed - F no, so while your lives are apparently destroyed about having a WOD open for one more week, just find a way to try to survive - OK?.

If you want real skiing and a guarantee of real skiing and snow, go to Snowbird or Whistler, otherwise find something a little less petty to have your little snit about.

Gawd, what losers.

Congrats on being rich and having tons of vacation time.

Guess it gives you the right to be an asshole.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Or go to Sugarloaf!

 

[Riverskier]

Wow you guys are even thicker than usual -

"Sunday, April 25 will be the final day of operations for the 2009-10 ski and snowboard season...based upon the weather forecast for next week calling for cloudy skies, rain and cool temperatures, combined with a thinning snow pack, it is time for us to end the season on a high note".

Get over it already- get a life! K-Mart's closing this weekend, due to, as they said before weather NOT PERMITTING. Is there business in this decision - probably - but just get over yourselves and your petty little problem, and (try to) get on with your lives and accept that K-Mart will be closed.

A week from now (or next season) will anyone remember or care when they closed - F no, so while your lives are apparently destroyed about having a WOD open for one more week, just find a way to try to survive - OK?.

If you want real skiing and a guarantee of real skiing and snow, go to Snowbird or Whistler, otherwise find something a little less petty to have your little snit about.

Gawd, what losers.

WOW, sounds like you need to get a life! Coming onto a Northeast skiing forum to insult Northeast skiing, and critisizing people for having a discussion in a discussion forum. You call us losers, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

 

[dmc]

I foresee a looooooooooooong summer on this site...

Whaddya expect from someone who skied the Canyons -5 times.. How do you even ski an area negative times..?

 

[big_vert]

Congrats on being rich and having tons of vacation time.

Guess it gives you the right to be an asshole.

And you would be a LOSER. Simple really.

 

[thetrailboss]

All right folks.....let's get back to the topic.

 

[big_vert]

WOW, sounds like you need to get a life! Coming onto a Northeast skiing forum to insult Northeast skiing, and critisizing people for having a discussion in a discussion forum. You call us losers, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

I had 5 days of least coast skiing this year (and 40+ years before that) so that qualifies that I can say something.

I had a bad week in UT, and said, gawd, this is bad enough to be least coast skiing - then I went to K-mart in late March. Nope, it wasn't bad enough to be least coast - how soon I forget.