Lance Armstrong folds

[riverc0il]

Can't wait to read Hamilton's book. My pre-order just got bumped up as they pushed the release date up to this coming week. Sweet.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...Keyes-hamilton-the-secret-race.html?168178276

The article lacks a critical aspect (perhaps due to the fact that an Outside contributing editor is co-author with Hamilton) so don't read this expecting an unbiased review of the book. But the facts from the book included seem pretty damning. Of course, the Armstrong camp will just say that Hamilton is trying to cash in and is lieing to make money now that he is outside the sport. But this article claims that the co-author corroborated the details with almost a dozen former Armstrong team mates.

I think it certainly says something that Hamilton speaks towards how he beat the tests himself. He only got caught once but it was enough, right? That means he doped all those years and didn't get caught. Certainly calls into question the whole Armstrong line about passing so many tests (except the one unofficially failed...).

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think LA should face the same scorn as Bonds and McGuire. These guys made their name breaking records that probably wouldn't have been done without the PEDs. For LA, it is irrelevant. He was still the best cyclist of his generation and one of the best ever.

Can't wait to read Hamilton's book. My pre-order just got bumped up as they pushed the release date up to this coming week. Sweet.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...Keyes-hamilton-the-secret-race.html?168178276

The article lacks a critical aspect (perhaps due to the fact that an Outside contributing editor is co-author with Hamilton) so don't read this expecting an unbiased review of the book. But the facts from the book included seem pretty damning. Of course, the Armstrong camp will just say that Hamilton is trying to cash in and is lieing to make money now that he is outside the sport. But this article claims that the co-author corroborated the details with almost a dozen former Armstrong team mates.

I think it certainly says something that Hamilton speaks towards how he beat the tests himself. He only got caught once but it was enough, right? That means he doped all those years and didn't get caught. Certainly calls into question the whole Armstrong line about passing so many tests (except the one unofficially failed...).

Riv, correct me if I'm wrong, but it would appear that you want Lance to be proven guilty. That's fine, but I don't understand why you want that proof when you don't scorn his "cheating".

Regarding the baseball comparison and how what they did is worse than what Lance did because Lance was the best cyclist of his generation and one of the best ever; that argument works with McGuire, but certainly not Bonds. FTR, I think Barry Bonds is one of the bigger aholes to ever be a professional athlete. That said, take away him bulking up on drugs and breaking home run records late in his career, he's definitely on par with Lance as being the best of his generation and one of the best ever.

Taking the drugs out of the equation or ignoring them because so many greats have used them, I think Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr are the two greatest position baseball players of my lifetime. For perspective, I was born in 75. There were plenty of old time greats like Yaz finishing out their career when I was a wee lad, but since 1985 or so, I can't think of any players that match those two; except for maybe Arod as painful as that is to say.

 

[riverc0il]

DHS... I think it is best for pro cycling that all the dirty laundry is aired, people admit what happened, and that way it can be put to bed and things can progress. Until that happens, this stuff is just going to keep lingering casting a shadow. I wouldn't say that I "want Lance to be proven guilty". To me the guilt is self evident. I don't scorn his "cheating" as you quoted because it was par for the course for everyone. I only care that he is a road block in closing the book and moving forward... and I hate to see the wool pulled over so many people's eyes.

Any one interested in this story is a rubber necker watching a train wreck in slow motion. You know you snidely remark that others are lame for doing it but you just can't help yourself.

Interesting parallel between Maguire/Sosa race and Lance... both PED driven superstar performances that drove interest in an activity later shunned as a slow motion train wreck happened... people gradually coming around and admitting to themselves that they were duped but they were happy to be duped because it was so fun to watch.

My only dog in this is meta. I am almost more interested in people's reactions and evolving opinions than the truth itself... because the truth -- in the historical sense -- is ultimately meaningless. Lance was the best cyclist of an age of cyclists that were the most doped ever. Let's get it all out and look at ways to clean it up and move on. But how different people have such divergent views based on the same information and how those views change, pretty interesting stuff (and I am of course part of that dynamic while being fascinated by it, hardly an impartial observer).

 

[JimG.]

Riv, correct me if I'm wrong, but it would appear that you want Lance to be proven guilty. That's fine, but I don't understand why you want that proof when you don't scorn his "cheating".

Regarding the baseball comparison and how what they did is worse than what Lance did because Lance was the best cyclist of his generation and one of the best ever; that argument works with McGuire, but certainly not Bonds. FTR, I think Barry Bonds is one of the bigger aholes to ever be a professional athlete. That said, take away him bulking up on drugs and breaking home run records late in his career, he's definitely on par with Lance as being the best of his generation and one of the best ever.

Taking the drugs out of the equation or ignoring them because so many greats have used them, I think Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr are the two greatest position baseball players of my lifetime. For perspective, I was born in 75. There were plenty of old time greats like Yaz finishing out their career when I was a wee lad, but since 1985 or so, I can't think of any players that match those two; except for maybe Arod as painful as that is to say.

You can't compare Lance to Bonds or Griffey for one glaring reason...neither Bonds nor Griffey ever won a world series. For all their numbers and regular season glory, they were not winners in the sense they never won the event considered the pinnacle of their sport.
Lance did that 7 years in a row.

 

[deadheadskier]

Sure I can. Just like I can say Barry Sanders was the best Running Back ever in the game of Football. Team Sports. I do recognize that in cycling, an individual needs a good team around him to win the Tour. It's not quite the same as baseball and football though with 25 and 53 man rosters respectively.

 

[greger1982]

Either way, he has good memories and a long ride. He's ahead because no one can take his experiences and memories away from him.
How many people get to ride a bike for a living and spend their days outside, doing what they love. He got to do it for years, and you can take away his medals, but you can't take away the good times he had.

 

[andyzee]

Either way, he has good memories and a long ride. He's ahead because no one can take his experiences and memories away from him.
How many people get to ride a bike for a living and spend their days outside, doing what they love. He got to do it for years, and you can take away his medals, but you can't take away the good times he had.

Great, great, great, first post! My thoughts exactly.

 

[JimG.]

Sure I can. Just like I can say Barry Sanders was the best Running Back ever in the game of Football. Team Sports. I do recognize that in cycling, an individual needs a good team around him to win the Tour. It's not quite the same as baseball and football though with 25 and 53 man rosters respectively.

OK point taken...but it doesn't mean it's true.

Most Americans, unfortunately sometimes, equate greatness in sports with winning and championships. Fair or not, that's the case. Bonds, Griffey, and Sanders all fell short in that regard. I think Dan Marino is the best QB talent to ever play football, but he isn't the greatest QB of all time for one simple reason...he never won the big one. Look at LeBron James this year...finally accepted as the greatest basketball player of his generation because he finally won a championship.

Lance had those bases covered 7 times over.

 

[deadheadskier]

I can see your argument with a QB in football because they have so much influence over the outcome of a game, but that's the only position in the game I can see that argument for. I can see your argument with a basketball player as there are only 5 players on the floor and the influence one player can have is huge. I don't agree with that argument when it comes to baseball though. Nolan Ryan, most strikeouts all time, fewest hits allowed per 9 innings all time, 7 no hitters, most strikeouts in a season - no WS rings. Carl Yaztremski, last man to hit for the triple crown - no WS rings.

I stand by my argument that Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. were the two best position players of their generation.

 

[bobbutts]

Obviously I don't really know either way, but it seems very probable that LA did dope significantly to me. I'm a bit surprised that so many here believe his innocence.

 

[JimG.]

Obviously I don't really know either way, but it seems very probable that LA did dope significantly to me. I'm a bit surprised that so many here believe his innocence.

I doubt anyone here thinks he's innocent.

The thought is more likely that he's being singled out in a sport known for doping.

 

[JimG.]

I can see your argument with a QB in football because they have so much influence over the outcome of a game, but that's the only position in the game I can see that argument for. I can see your argument with a basketball player as there are only 5 players on the floor and the influence one player can have is huge. I don't agree with that argument when it comes to baseball though. Nolan Ryan, most strikeouts all time, fewest hits allowed per 9 innings all time, 7 no hitters, most strikeouts in a season - no WS rings. Carl Yaztremski, last man to hit for the triple crown - no WS rings.

I stand by my argument that Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. were the two best position players of their generation.

Nolan Ryan did win a WS...with the Mets in 1969.

Yaz played for the Sox during the curse years...nuff said about that.

I do see your argument regarding the numbers of players on the field and the impact any one of those players can have on the outcome of a game. You are correct that this argument is much different for baseball.

 

[RootDKJ]

I doubt anyone here thinks he's innocent.

The thought is more likely that he's being singled out in a sport known for doping.

Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[riverc0il]

Innocent until proven guilty.

No contest in the agreed upon legal forum for a defense is guilty. When the evidence is so damning that you don't even want it made public, that is pretty damn guilty.

This is a fun photo:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-of-the-tour-de-france-tainted-by-doping.html

 

[RootDKJ]

No contest in the agreed upon legal forum for a defense is guilty. When the evidence is so damning that you don't even want it made public, that is pretty damn guilty.

This is a fun photo:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-of-the-tour-de-france-tainted-by-doping.html

Pure speculation. Nobody here can prove what Lance did or did not do. Only he knows the truth, and he's not telling. Personally, I stopped giving a shit about professional athletes when they started complaining that they couldn't live on less than $500K a year.

 

[JimG.]

This is really the type of sports story we should talk about...pretty amazing:

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/c...r-handcycling-time-trial-090512?ocid=ansfox11

 

[bvibert]

This is really the type of sports story we should talk about...pretty amazing:

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/c...r-handcycling-time-trial-090512?ocid=ansfox11

Indeed, very inspiring!

 

[ScottySkis]

This is really the type of sports story we should talk about...pretty amazing:

http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/c...r-handcycling-time-trial-090512?ocid=ansfox11

That is a great story thanks for posting it.

 

[JimG.]

That is a great story thanks for posting it.

I remember when Zanardi was injured...he was the 2 time defending CART champion, they didn't mention that in the article. He was one of the best drivers of his time. Like most race drivers, he was cocky and very aggressive. I also remember when he drove an Indy car again 2 years later. I considered that the apex of his life.

Now he wins a gold medal at the paralympics. I am in awe.

These types of people are the most inspiring individuals alive and they have earned my deepest respect and admiration.

 

[mlctvt]

Well it looks like none of us will be defending Lance any more?
I was one who stood by Lance and gave him the benefit of doubt due to the lack of physical evidence and no positive tests, but the new evidence released this week and the 26 people giving extremely detailed affidavits it seems Lance wasn't just doping but he was one of the ring leaders if not the top official on US Postal/ Discovery pushing doping on young upcoming riders.