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Alterra and DV Presidents Speak at Virtual Town Hall Event in Park City

machski

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So a few points. First, you're looking at this on the micro level (revenue per day) than the macro level (overall revenue). Second, the point that you're missing is that those who are passholders at a lot of these partner resorts are NOT happy with the crowding and the issues created by Ikon. So a lot of them are dropping their passes or threatening to do so. WHY would you risk losing someone who represents at least $1,000 in revenue for someone who, at most, represents $200-480 or so? And even then you are competing with other resorts to get that revenue? You wouldn't. That's why you are seeing places like Big Sky, Brighton, Jackson Hole, and even Crown's own Aspen resorts restricting Ikon access because their very own passholders are not happy with the crowding issues and are leaving. Hell, Aspen has even quit Ikon base altogether and it is an owner of Alterra. What does that tell you?

You are right that, to some extent, the two can coexist provided that there is no conflict. Here there is and POWDR ain't doing nothing about it. But the problem becomes that the ones who are paying the freight are asking, "why am I paying this much for an experience that is now more crowded?" and are leaving. Normally you do not want that. Boyne, Jackson Hole, and even Aspen are indeed responding to this concern while POWDR is ignoring it completely and even acting adverse to the largest portion of their business. Why is that? It flies in the face of normal business logic.

My point with POWDR is that it is trying to have its cake and eat it too. And I have reason to believe it is not working out because they are losing passholders and can't pay to hold onto good staff or finish this project at what is supposed to be a flagship resort. As I predicted last year, instead of evaluating Ikon to appease passholders they just increased the pass price to make up for the loss of revenue. They want to have Ikon AND pass revenue. But in some places that creates the conflict I've outlined.

Now getting back to my bigger point--and that is POWDR not finishing the lodge. Ultimately only POWDR knows why. POWDR is not managing season passholder expectations well and, at least out here, has lost passholder business because of it.

And finally my comments about Ikon are not at all meant to be personal. I get the sense that you are taking it that way. I'm glad that you are having a good experience with Ikon and it works for you. As you said the dynamics are different on the east coast. They are not out here.
The one problem with your POV is that it is hard to fully control the buying habits of an individual passholder. Unless they have real estate proerty that quassi locks them it at a certain resort, what ties them into a certain pass? So as a resort, yes you want to cater to some extent your full season passholders. But why would you exclude another mass pool of revenue to save a few higher dollar passholders (maybe)? Sure an Ikon guest contributes less, but if that is drawing 3X the visits than passholders themselves, you have a bigger customer pool to draw on. Reliance on individual passholders is a bit akin to putting most of your revenue eggs in one basket. It actually is poor business to close off your revenvue streams to just one limited pool.
 

dblskifanatic

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The one problem with your POV is that it is hard to fully control the buying habits of an individual passholder. Unless they have real estate proerty that quassi locks them it at a certain resort, what ties them into a certain pass? So as a resort, yes you want to cater to some extent your full season passholders. But why would you exclude another mass pool of revenue to save a few higher dollar passholders (maybe)? Sure an Ikon guest contributes less, but if that is drawing 3X the visits than passholders themselves, you have a bigger customer pool to draw on. Reliance on individual passholders is a bit akin to putting most of your revenue eggs in one basket. It actually is poor business to close off your revenvue streams to just one limited pool.

Makes one think - is A Basin doing limited sales for that exact reason? They want to hopefully get more lift ticket sales because they know they will come? Early pass sales are great for generating revenue that be used for improvements during the off season.
 

thetrailboss

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The one problem with your POV is that it is hard to fully control the buying habits of an individual passholder. Unless they have real estate proerty that quassi locks them it at a certain resort, what ties them into a certain pass? So as a resort, yes you want to cater to some extent your full season passholders. But why would you exclude another mass pool of revenue to save a few higher dollar passholders (maybe)? Sure an Ikon guest contributes less, but if that is drawing 3X the visits than passholders themselves, you have a bigger customer pool to draw on. Reliance on individual passholders is a bit akin to putting most of your revenue eggs in one basket. It actually is poor business to close off your revenvue streams to just one limited pool.
Again, $10 million vs. $1-2 million.

And my point has been misconstrued to "only" catering to season passholders. That is not what I am saying.
 

machski

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Again, $10 million vs. $1-2 million.

And my point has been misconstrued to "only" catering to season passholders. That is not what I am saying.
I get that point, but the $10 million is from a "relatively" small pool and slight changes in the whims of these folks could drastically affect a resort's revenue stream with few people changing. Where as the $1-2 million revenue comes from a large and likely traveling and not local (IE better potential for added revenue from those customers) and the pattern changes of a relative few won't impact that revenue stream to the extent pattern changes amongst pure passholders would. You are not going to go with one or the other when you can have both. Perhaps a better balance needs to be reached, but you had better know where the headache is driven from. Unless you have hard data the resort has, you can make assumptions on what is driving the headaches, but you might be wrong.
 

1dog

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Anyone have an issue with Alterra contracting out payments to Affirm? My issue - I just canceled the payment program and will simply pay early-season sign up all at once - is they won't take AMEX ( or any cc for that matter), they want a bank acct # or debit card. I won't allow either.
Just yet another app to manage and send me crap I don't want. Called Ikon and they said hands were tied unless I wanted to pay all now. Affirm wants info access and spending habits to record and sell. It was a lot less time-consuming to call and give a cc #. Affirm doesn't even have a phone number.
 

thetrailboss

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Anyone have an issue with Alterra contracting out payments to Affirm? My issue - I just canceled the payment program and will simply pay early-season sign up all at once - is they won't take AMEX ( or any cc for that matter), they want a bank acct # or debit card. I won't allow either.
Just yet another app to manage and send me crap I don't want. Called Ikon and they said hands were tied unless I wanted to pay all now. Affirm wants info access and spending habits to record and sell. It was a lot less time-consuming to call and give a cc #. Affirm doesn't even have a phone number.
Wow.
 

thetrailboss

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I get that point, but the $10 million is from a "relatively" small pool and slight changes in the whims of these folks could drastically affect a resort's revenue stream with few people changing.
Which is why pissing off a lot of those folks is not a good idea.
 

abc

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Anyone have an issue with Alterra contracting out payments to Affirm? My issue - I just canceled the payment program and will simply pay early-season sign up all at once - is they won't take AMEX ( or any cc for that matter), they want a bank acct # or debit card. I won't allow either.
Just yet another app to manage and send me crap I don't want. Called Ikon and they said hands were tied unless I wanted to pay all now. Affirm wants info access and spending habits to record and sell. It was a lot less time-consuming to call and give a cc #. Affirm doesn't even have a phone number.
No credit card??? So what happen to those of us who want to use a credit card to accumulate points? We can't?

Or I'm missing something...
 

cdskier

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No credit card??? So what happen to those of us who want to use a credit card to accumulate points? We can't?

Or I'm missing something...
If you want to pay in full you can use a credit card. You apparently just can't use the credit card to pay with their payment plan I think is what 1dog is saying (I've never used those payment plans...so no personal experience there).
 

thetrailboss

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If you want to pay in full you can use a credit card. You apparently just can't use the credit card to pay with their payment plan I think is what 1dog is saying (I've never used those payment plans...so no personal experience there).
That is really weird.
 

cdskier

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That is really weird.
Do banks normally let people pay off loans with a credit card? Realistically that's what a payment plan is...it is a low interest/no interest loan. From my perspective it really isn't all that weird. FWIW, there are quite a few places that use Affirm (the company Ikon chose to use for this).
 

1dog

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But do banks allow people to pay off their loans with a debit card?
Sure, no financial institution is ever going to turn away a payment, regardless of how it's made - unless it costs them money. I used to have a dentist who paid everything ( including his mortgage) with a cc so he could utilize the points. Most banks or mortgage note holders won't allow that because of the transaction costs.. Both sides incur costs- unless they ( consumers) don't pay of balances every month. Merchants get whacked with up to 3% charge - it all depends on # of monthly transactions and the avg size of transactions. It's the main reason I use AMEX ( the most expensive trans cost of any card btw)

Just don't want yet another app and firm to be paying too. Like everyone who gives interest-free payments, they hope and pray - with good track record - that most consumers will draw it out and fees will be incurred. If you want to play that investment, MC/Visa - were and are both solid investments over time. They make $$ regardless of the economy. Like stock traders. . . . . or RE brokers - whether you're buying or selling. . . . they win on fees.
 

cdskier

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But do banks allow people to pay off their loans with a debit card?

Apparently over 60% of the top lenders in the US allowed debit cards to be used as of a 2016 survey, but most still do not allow CCs. Seems to really come down to transaction costs and fees for the lenders being the driving factor.
 

KustyTheKlown

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a debit card is cash, its just drawing cash from your checking account.

a credit card is debt, and unless you are refinancing, you generally cannot pay debt with debt.
 

1dog

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So it's not about the installment plan being a no interest loan then?
Alterra told me they get paid up front from
Affirm. They take the risk and the ( potential) fees.
 

KustyTheKlown

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Alterra told me they get paid up front from
Affirm. They take the risk and the ( potential) fees.

i work for a SaaS provider and this is how it works for us. our clients fund, we get paid the value of their 3 year contract up front, and they pay the funder month to month. we eat the interest and fees. we also take on the risk of the client cancelling before their term is up, tho our T&Cs protect us somewhat. its not uncommon at all. our funder does not accept credit cards, because its a loan and you generally cannot pay debt with debt. exact same reason why i cannot put my car lease payments on a credit card.
 

cdskier

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i work for a SaaS provider and this is how it works for us. our clients fund, we get paid the value of their 3 year contract up front, and they pay the funder month to month. we eat the interest and fees. we also take on the risk of the client cancelling before their term is up, tho our T&Cs protect us somewhat. its not uncommon at all. our funder does not accept credit cards, because its a loan and you generally cannot pay debt with debt. exact same reason why i cannot put my car lease payments on a credit card.

If this Affirm usage for installment payment plans is what people are going to criticize Alterra for now, then I'd say they're in pretty good shape comparatively speaking.
 

1dog

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If this Affirm usage for installment payment plans is what people are going to criticize Alterra for now, then I'd say they're in pretty good shape comparatively speaking.
'specially if they pick up Jay - or partner. s/b bargain basement prices and a buyer should drive up higher priced real estate around the hill. Right now, who would risk $400K on a condo?
 
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