Local Press: Cannon to Make a Profit This Season and Plans its Future

[ckofer]

Not enough vert for an FIS-legal DH run (unless you run it on the Tucker Brook Trail )

How many more feet would it need? Drain the pond and start digging!

 

[OppositeGeorge]

How many more feet would it need? Drain the pond and start digging!

Well, assuming the Olympic Committee would even consider the area (given how huge a deal the Olympics have become, it's IMO unlikely...)

An FIS men's downhill needs to have, IIRC, between 800 and 1100 meters vertical drop, or about 2600 - 3600 ft, though they will make slight exceptions. From the summit to the tram base you're talking just under 2200' vertical, so as long as that pond is about 400' deep (or you have a big shovel) we're all set.

Seriously, Tucker Brook is about 2800' vert top-to-bottom. I say for our Cannon Olympics we run the downhill on that, ungroomed and as-is. Okay, even though its (still-respectable) pitch is a bit shy of most downhill runs at only 28 degrees, we can make up for that by leaving it at its current width (about 15' or so in spots.)

 

[riverc0il]

When I say the Burke Stigma, what I am referring to is the fact that many folks incorrectly stigmatize Burke as a long drive, especially skiers/riders in the Ski 93 corridor. That regularly drive 2-3 hours from Boston Metro to ski places like Loon, Waterville, Cannon, Bretton Woods, Wildcat, etc. Burke is the closest major VT ski area to Boston Metro with exception of Ascutney but the "north of the notch" mentality is hard to shake.

 

[ckofer]

A) I brought up the Olympics thing as I had been watching a newscast that noted how it was getting harder to find safe places to host them. Downhill event on Mt. Washington.

B) Steve- Burke does seem remote in my mind too. Maybe Cannon/Loon is the travel threshold for many daytrippers already.

 

[riverc0il]

B) Steve- Burke does seem remote in my mind too. Maybe Cannon/Loon is the travel threshold for many daytrippers already.

Burke is still the second closest VT resort to Boston Metro for over nighters even if the day trippers do not see a barely three hour drive as doable. It is closer than anything else in Northern Vermont and on par with most areas in central and southern VT from the Boston area. So threshold for day trippers really is not an issue because of the amount of folks that over night in VT but still think Burke is off the map far away.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Burke is still the second closest VT resort to Boston Metro for over nighters even if the day trippers do not see a barely three hour drive as doable. It is closer than anything else in Northern Vermont and on par with most areas in central and southern VT from the Boston area. So threshold for day trippers really is not an issue because of the amount of folks that over night in VT but still think Burke is off the map far away.

It is really unbelievable how hard it is to get people to shake the "too far away" stigma. Every time my cousin (who lives in Boston) drives up to Lyndon, he says the same thing. "That was a pretty quick drive. We got here in 2 hours and 50 minutes". I keep reminding him of this when I try to get him to come up to go skiing. It is actually a very easy drive to Burke, all interstate except the last 7.5 miles which do not involve snaking up a switchbacking narrow mountain road at 5 mph.
To go along with this thread, if you stop off at Cannon because they are having a good powder day instead of continuing on to Burke, that is acceptable. However, being too lazy to drive an extra 5 minutes to Cannon or 45 to Burke to escape the Loon/Waterville weekend hords is not

 

[AdironRider]

People dont go to Burke cause it has what 30 trails? Not as much vert as the other "big" VT hills, less snow than Jay or Stowe. THe list goes on. Frankly if Im from Boston and dropping all the cash to head up to VT for a weekend, Im going somewhere else other than Burke.

 

[from_the_NEK]

It is really unbelievable how hard it is to get people to shake the "too far away" stigma. Every time my cousin (who lives in Boston) drives up to Lyndon, he says the same thing. "That was a pretty quick drive. We got here in 2 hours and 50 minutes".

Just for clarification... the 2 hour and 50 minute drive time is on clear roads at ~75 mph. The stigma that is well documented as fact is that often "North of the Notches" involves a completely different set of weather which usually consists of snow showers and snow covered roads when south of the notch may be sun (although that seemed to be a bit backwards this year).
I personally have no problem driving in snow (I actually like it), however a lot of city folk immediately grip the steering wheel tighter and ride the brake more as soon as the road goes white. The less time they have to fear for their lives on snow covered roads the better. Thus the result of staying on the south end of the snow belt and often complaining about there not being very much snow. Suck it up and go to the snow, do a little research http://www.nohrsc.nws.gov/interactive/html/map, invest in some snow tires, or decent all weather and some 4 wheel drive.
I drove from Lyndon to Cannon Mtn this year in a substantial snow storm in 32 minutes.

 

[Greg]

It is really unbelievable how hard it is to get people to shake the "too far away" stigma. Every time my cousin (who lives in Boston) drives up to Lyndon, he says the same thing. "That was a pretty quick drive. We got here in 2 hours and 50 minutes". I keep reminding him of this when I try to get him to come up to go skiing. It is actually a very easy drive to Burke, all interstate except the last 7.5 miles which do not involve snaking up a switchbacking narrow mountain road at 5 mph.
To go along with this thread, if you stop off at Cannon because they are having a good powder day instead of continuing on to Burke, that is acceptable. However, being too lazy to drive an extra 5 minutes to Cannon or 45 to Burke to escape the Loon/Waterville weekend hords is not

Burke is still the second closest VT resort to Boston Metro for over nighters even if the day trippers do not see a barely three hour drive as doable. It is closer than anything else in Northern Vermont and on par with most areas in central and southern VT from the Boston area. So threshold for day trippers really is not an issue because of the amount of folks that over night in VT but still think Burke is off the map far away.

This may hold true from the Boston Metro, but from Central Mass or CT via 91, Burke is about the same drive as the MRV or Stowe. Maybe 15 minutes closer, at best. I know Burke gets high praise and I do want to try it someday, but it's tough to bypass the ski areas on the spine. Again, not to take anything away from the place, but I struggle with believing it's significantly better from a terrain and snowfall standpoint than the MRV or Stowe (haven't been, but...). I still want to give it a try someday.

 

[AdironRider]

The point is, noone is going to bypass 6 other (and I would argue better mtns) than drive 3 hours up to Burke, coming from Boston at least. It doesnt have anything to do with "weather above the notches" or whatnot. Its just not worth it. Why would someone from Boston on a day trip (or even a weekender) drive all that extra distance, when they can get better skiing at Loon, Sunapee, Cannon, Gunstock, Waterville, or hell even Pats Peak, etc hours closer to home. While some of the mtns I listed might not seem better to you, Burke really is way out in the middle of nowhere compared to most mtns. It is what it is, theres no use in trying to spin it any other way.

 

[from_the_NEK]

People dont go to Burke cause it has what 30 trails? Not as much vert as the other "big" VT hills, less snow than Jay or Stowe. THe list goes on. Frankly if Im from Boston and dropping all the cash to head up to VT for a weekend, Im going somewhere else other than Burke.

45 trails including glades...
2000ft vert (1600' upper mtn)... pretty much even with Jay here since the lower 500 feet of their ~2000 vert is the runout back to the tram.
Not as much total snow but very consistant cover... and less competition for fresh tracks
As far as I can tell MUCH more affordable than a family weekend at Stowe. Season pass = $520 vs $1500 at Stowe.
Have fun standing in line at other resorts as well cause I like to pay a lot to do that too :argue:

 

[deadheadskier]

People dont go to Burke cause it has what 30 trails? Not as much vert as the other "big" VT hills, less snow than Jay or Stowe. THe list goes on. Frankly if Im from Boston and dropping all the cash to head up to VT for a weekend, Im going somewhere else other than Burke.

I have not ever been to Burke, but read plenty about it. From my understanding, the vert there is fairly close to that of Jay and Stowe, a tad less, but still better than many areas. Same goes for natural snowfall. 250 avg for New England is pretty much top 10.

You live out west and I assume like powder right? My guess is that powder stays around far longer at Burke before getting tracked out than Jay or Stowe.

As for skiable acreage, I believe Burke is comparable in size to Cannon or Wildcat, which is a good amount of terrain to enjoy.

I guess what I'm saying is don't knock it til' you try it. Burke is at the top of my list as a must do for next season. I've heard nothing but GREAT things about it.

 

[AdironRider]

Ive gotten to ride at Burke before, albeit it was about 4 years ago. I think its unfair to compare western powder to eastern skiing, but powder stashes are always nice. But even with your arguments, its tough to justify bypassing all the other resorts you mentioned, for something that is just about as good as a bunch of other places. Is the relative lack of crowds at a mtn thats just a little smaller or just equal to other places worth the added hours of travel time, gas money, etc (which when compared to say Loon, adds up to over an hour or two travel time, 30-50 bucks in gas depending on your car, etc)? Hard to justify. Travel time is a pretty huge deal if you've got kids. I know I made my parents life hell on long car trips when I was younger.

I would also argue that other than Loon or Waterville crowds aren't a huge problem, but Ive also never been to Stowe or Jay on a weekend.

 

[from_the_NEK]

The point is, noone is going to bypass 6 other (and I would argue better mtns) than drive 3 hours up to Burke, coming from Boston at least. It doesnt have anything to do with "weather above the notches" or whatnot. Its just not worth it. Why would someone from Boston on a day trip (or even a weekender) drive all that extra distance, when they can get better skiing at Loon, Sunapee, Cannon, Gunstock, Waterville, or hell even Pats Peak, etc hours closer to home. While some of the mtns I listed might not seem better to you, Burke really is way out in the middle of nowhere compared to most mtns. It is what it is, theres no use in trying to spin it any other way.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "better skiing" is.
I wouldn't say Burke is the middle of nowhere but it is in the "middle" and that is what has plagued Burke and the NEK in general from the beginning. All of the other ski areas sort of form a moat around the NE VT and siphon off the vast majority of skiers and riders that don't think past escaping the weekend craziness at the other resorts. That extra 40 minutes of driving past Loon can easily fade to no (even negative) time advantage during 2 lift line waits on a busy Saturday in the south. When (if) Burke ever puts in a HSQ this may make people "feel" as though the lift ride isn't wasting half their day as well.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Ive gotten to ride at Burke before, albeit it was about 4 years ago. I think its unfair to compare western powder to eastern skiing, but powder stashes are always nice. But even with your arguments, its tough to justify bypassing all the other resorts you mentioned, for something that is just about as good as a bunch of other places. Is the relative lack of crowds at a mtn thats just a little smaller or just equal to other places worth the added hours of travel time, gas money, etc (which when compared to say Loon, adds up to over an hour or two travel time, 30-50 bucks in gas depending on your car, etc)? Hard to justify. Travel time is a pretty huge deal if you've got kids. I know I made my parents life hell on long car trips when I was younger.

I would also argue that other than Loon or Waterville crowds aren't a huge problem, but Ive also never been to Stowe or Jay on a weekend.

Is trying to keep track of kids at a crowded mountain that has lifts going all over the place easier than keeping them in the car for 40 minutes longer? Ideally, on the return trip, the kids would be asleep before you even reach St Johnsbury (due to actually being tired from skiing rather than standing in a line).

Stowe and Jay are typically pretty crowded on weekends. Jay has gotten much worse over the last few years. Riverc0il typically scores his best days at Jay when he can get there mid week as the competition for freshies is much lower. Many of the trip reports for Stowe and Jay on AZ are from people who know these mtns very well and can can avoid the crowds.

When you hit Burke 4 years ago did anyone show you around the mtn? It is pretty easy to get stuck on the rotation of the same major groomed runs unless you read between the lines on the trail map. If you ever decide to actually make the huge extra effort to go to Burke again, let me know and I will show you around.

P.S. this thread has been totally highjacked...

 

[deadheadskier]

Why would someone from Boston on a day trip (or even a weekender) drive all that extra distance, when they can get better skiing at Loon, Sunapee, Cannon, Gunstock, Waterville, or hell even Pats Peak, etc hours closer to home.

Again, haven't skied there, but outside of Cannon on that list you are WAY in the minority around these parts (alpinezone), if you think those areas are better than Burke.

 

[thetrailboss]

Ive gotten to ride at Burke before, albeit it was about 4 years ago. I think its unfair to compare western powder to eastern skiing, but powder stashes are always nice. But even with your arguments, its tough to justify bypassing all the other resorts you mentioned, for something that is just about as good as a bunch of other places. Is the relative lack of crowds at a mtn thats just a little smaller or just equal to other places worth the added hours of travel time, gas money, etc (which when compared to say Loon, adds up to over an hour or two travel time, 30-50 bucks in gas depending on your car, etc)? Hard to justify. Travel time is a pretty huge deal if you've got kids. I know I made my parents life hell on long car trips when I was younger.

I would also argue that other than Loon or Waterville crowds aren't a huge problem, but Ive also never been to Stowe or Jay on a weekend.

There is a HUGE difference in variety and quality of terrain between Burke and Loon. A completely different experience. But if you want the Loon experience of crowds, lack of expert terrain, and long lines, and blah cruisers, then Burke is not the place for you.

 

[AdironRider]

That because everyone rides the bandwagon and assumes Burke is automatically better. Ive skied all the places I listed and stand by my statement. Different factors make up my decision, including travel time. Sunapee and Gunstock are only an hour as opposed to three to Burke from my old place in seacoast NH. Cannon is only 1 1/2 hours with better terrain. Waterville and Loon are 1:20 or so and much better for families/similar terrain. Pats is 45 minutes and super cheap.

Im pretty good at exploring new mtns, its like the little kid in me. When Im somwhere new I only ride a trail once before moving on. I remember some nice hidden tree shots at Burke, but Im sure only being there a day I didnt begin to scratch the surface. But on the same note, you can argue that for pretty much every hill out there. Every ski hill has stashes..

 

[thetrailboss]

While some of the mtns I listed might not seem better to you, Burke really is way out in the middle of nowhere compared to most mtns. It is what it is, theres no use in trying to spin it any other way.

If being 7 miles off of Interstate 91 is considered "the middle of nowhere," then I guess Stowe (about 10-12 miles off 89), Sugarbush (15-20 miles off 89), hell, even Killington (35 miles off 89) are way out there. :blink:

 

[AdironRider]

There is a HUGE difference in variety and quality of terrain between Burke and Loon. A completely different experience. But if you want the Loon experience of crowds, lack of expert terrain, and long lines, and blah cruisers, then Burke is not the place for you.

I love how on this board people assume that this is how one feels when someone dares to say that from the metro area, Loon is a better option. It is in most cases, which is what Ive been arguing all along. Sure Burke is a great hill, and if all things were equal traveling wise Id go there before Loon anyday. But it isnt equal, Burke is further, and in the eyes of most, not worth the 1:30 round trip, added gas, headaches with kids for a mtn thats really just as good and not better than most (See deadheadskiers post).

Ive listed the pros and cons for every mtn, and Burke just isnt worth the extra drive. If it was, dont you think more people would be there? Simple economics shows that Burke does not merit a large demand from major population areas for the reason I listed above. Sure its a good hill, but not good enough. End of story.