Lowering the Drinking Age??

[thetrailboss]

Trailboss, you have a valid point about the insurance increasing. I was talking with one bar owner about the drinking age, and they brought up the insurance issue.

Yes, liability for bar owners is a concern but my main thrust was auto insurance.

The thing is that they already have a problem with insurance. A large part of the problem is the legislature messing with insurance. We've seen the problem with health insurance and workman's comp.

Well, if insurance rates were set by the legislature in MA, then we'd be getting ripped off. Right now we are VERY safe drivers and are paying a ridiculously low price. Those who are risks to the company are paying more. The system is working.

The reason the bar owners insurance would go up if the law says the bar owner is responsible, now if we changed the law so that the individual is held responsible for their own actions and the courts followed a similar line of reasoning then the insurance rates would decrease for bar owners.

Agreed somewhat. The problem is not the COURTS, which seem to be a scapegoat for pretty much everything, the problem lies, again, with what I've said...people being responsible for their own actions. Someone who admits that they are responsible and lives with it don't sue others :roll:

The law that you refer to is most likely derived from caselaw and the precedent that has been set by other cases.

 

[thetrailboss]

The thread needs to be revived because there are a lot of myths that the prohibitionist and governement continues to put out there that need to be challenged and shown to be false. Once we do that then we can save 60,000 more lives each year in the United States once we reform our bad alcohol policies.

Hardy

Simply dropping the drinking age does not solve the problem of underage drinking or make people more responsible! If it were that easy, don't you think that we would have already done it? :wink:

 

[HardyMachia]

For those of you who are arguing about public transportation being the difference in highway traffic fatalies, that is exactly why I used Canada and Australia. They are much closer to the USA as far as car culture goes than most European countries. So, its a myth that public transportation is the reason why non American countries are safer. -- Australia 75% safer, Canada 50% safer are two cases in point.

Yes, the Europeans drink much more than Americas. America is ranked 32 or 37th in the world for per person alcohol consumption. There is nothing wrong with drinking regularly, numerous studies show the health benefits of it. The thing you can't do is abuse alcohol which is something Americans seem to be better at than other countries, which is a result of our culture and the fact that unlike the rest of the world we make it a forbidden fruit and tell our kids you can't drink until you are 21.

In Vermot parents can be put in jail for up to 2 year and fined between $500 of $2000 for giving their kid a sip of alcohol.

Hardy Machia

 

[HardyMachia]

Simply dropping the drinking age does not solve the problem of underage drinking or make people more responsible! If it were that easy, don't you think that we would have already done it? :wink:

CORRECT. Which is why I'm not talking about just dropping the drinking age. I'm also talking about changing our culture around drinking so that parents aren't considered criminals if they want to introduce their kids to alcohol in a responsible manner when they are at home, or at a restaurant/pub/club.

If you read my link about the Parental Option and the Lawful Option, you will see my summary suggests that Vermont first pass a Parental Option so that we can start changing our culture.

Hardy Machia

 

[HardyMachia]

case in point...

My family has always had guns...
When I was a kid - my Dad taught me about gun safety and let me shoot them....

I never tried to shoot the guns unless he was around because I respected them.

Kids always want what they can't have...

You just proved my point...nobody has any respect any more.

To paraphrase the Department of Liquor Control Officer that I talked to last year about the drinking age. "Yes lowering the drinking age is a great idea. Today's 18-year-olds are not responsible like they used to be when the drinking age was 18." Of course, when you take away responsibility from people and give it to someone else or to the government the indidividual will readily give up their respoinsibilty and be less responsible. The solution is to put the responsibility back and hold them accountable for their actions.

Hardy Machia

 

[thetrailboss]

Today's 18-year-olds are not responsible like they used to be when the drinking age was 18." Of course, when you take away responsibility from people and give it to someone else or to the government the indidividual will readily give up their respoinsibilty and be less responsible. The solution is to put the responsibility back and hold them accountable for their actions.

Hardy Machia

Yes, but your argument is to simply lower the drinking age, no?

And do we want people who have little experience driving on the roads with alcohol in their system? No, of course not!

 

[noreaster]

In weighing benefits vs. risks, this is a no-brainer.

Instead I think they should allow parents to offer some amount of alcohol to 18-21 year olds with restrictions,
-Stephen

I agree. Kids still want to celbrate key sports victories etc. Today the kids drink from their cars. If it were legal for parents to serve kids within limits, then ...... ahh I don't know.

Look automobiles are killing machines without alcohol. With alcohol automobiles are even better at killing people. There even better then all the wars put together. What is it now 40,000 fatalities per year or 50,000 per year just in the USA. 500 won't make it this weekend.

I hope everyone has a safe memorial day weekend. Enjoy yourself :beer:. Don't drink and drive and watch out for the other guy.

 

[Mike P.]

We were responsible at 18? I would beg to differ although as a generality perhaps a larger percentage of kids in the 70's were more responsible but there are some responsible ones now.

Hmmm, at 18 I lost 2 teeth in an alcohol related incident

Had a couple of nights before 21 of not remembering how I got home & I was the driver

my brother hit a house
another brother hit a bridge

I had to rip out a page in my year book I could not let my kids see - I was sober but incident was quite bad & showed by irresponsibility

Fact that all of my parents seven children have reached age 32+ (well my two sisters had a good shot at it but my brothers & I?????) is amazing

we did lose 4 students in my senior class, two in an accident where where were on a windy local road at an estimated 95 MPH was either drug or alcohol related or both.

We drank in cars at 16 & 17 we weren't so immature then & at 18 became mature & responsible. we drank in cars at 18 too, with limited cash, a six pack of Molson was $5. two of them in a bar would have been that or more, besides we had to cruise our town (read turf as we thought about it 26 years ago)

Drinking is not a maturity issue. Want something to equate being drafted or volunteering to go to war? You are also old enough to vote & therefore you have a say in how our country is run.

 

[NHhiker]

being a younger teen, i know how hard it is to not drink a ber by the time you are 13. i think you should be able to drink at 18. you can do everthing else, like vote, gamble, smoke, chew, and be drafted. so why not let them drink? i dont think they should have full drinking rights. i think they should have to A.) have a 21 year old buy them drinks, but let them drink it. B.) limit what kinds they can drink.

thats just my 2 cents.

 

[flyingfree]

Lower the drinking age..

Wow, hot topic. It's like saying, should we legalize pot. NO, don't get into that with me!!

I was legal at 18. We didn't have picture ID's. I drank at 16 because my 18 year old brother bought for me. The drinking age got raised in NJ (1/2 of us were grandfathered, half of us were banned) We'd swap licenses and get in.

Other people drove to NY and got killed on the way home because the age was still 18 in NY.

I partied like crazy in high school and college. I drove drunk underage and as an adult.

My parents brought us up drinking wine at the table during holidays and sunday dinner from the age of 9...so we would be responsible.

I just loved to drink and I snuck it as much as I could and hung out in the bars throughout my 20's.

Eventually I got married, had a kid and grew up. I don't bother with it anymore. I've raised my daughter to be very conscious...but she's 15 now and God knows what she'll do. I certainly hope she doesn't take after me.

Having a drinking age in a way doesn't work. My friend from Germany was chasing her 14 year old daughter around, grabbing her from Amsterdam because she was off and running drinking and drugging LEGALLY.

I think the only way to help with kids drinking is to be an example and to educate them. If I don't want my daughter to drink, I shouldn't be getting smashed at home and romanticizing it. I don't. And when and if she starts...if she is irresponsible she will have consequences.

If she wants to drink at home 18 and older, I will allow that as long as she stays at home and doesn't drink and drive.

I don't want to see my 18 year old in a bar. That's where I hung out. I know where that can lead. When she goes to college it will be a whole different game. But there is a difference to me having a high schooler at a bar and a college student, or someone who lives independantly and supports themselves. I guess it's basic maturity. (and when does maturity actually kick in???)

Yeah, it sucks to go off to war and then not be able to come home and drink. But in my opinion, drinking shouldn't be the national past time either.

 

[Jaytrek57]

I understand, but cannot verify, that the bars on station allow all service personel a drink.

This is simply not true. All Bases/forts (Homeland) are 21+ to drink.

Now the enforcement, or ease, of which under 21 service men (and women) can get alcohol on post is probably twice as easy than in civilian life.

There seems to be line of thinking here that 18,19 year old service men (and women) are somehow more mature, responsible than others. I grant you more structured ( :wink: ).

Alcohol abuse on bases/forts is a huge, I mean huge problem. Binge drinking is common and Article 15's are given out like candy on Mondays.

Perhaps it is just me, but it really upsets me when one generation critiques another. And it happens with every generation.

WE had better music. WE did things better. WE had to walk ten miles to school, uphill, both ways. When I was 18 (20 years ago) I thought when I heard these types of statements from "older" people, well, it was crap. I still feel that way.

I think in a lot of ways we have made it more difficult/shameful for kids to MAKE their fair of growing up mistakes. (I could probably of worded this better.)

Todays kids have x amount more problems then a generation ago. They also have x amount more potential for successes.

Just my $.02.

I need a drink. :beer:

 

[marcski]

I'm a free spirit..and believe that people should have the right to choose...pretty much anything they'd like.

I agree with some others here...who mentioned responsibleness comes from home..with parents. In europe they grow up with alcohol of some sort on the table.

I mean, if your giving someone the opportunity to vote, be in the army, by all means they should be able to have a cold beer at a ballgame.

 

[bigbog]

If any keg-headded, draft-dodgin' MF like the one presently occupying the White House can order you into harms way, based on the whim of a few top a-hole politicians, I say...darn right...anyone over 13 deserves the right to responsibly consume alcohol. What the raising of the drinking age has done in this society is to let all the absentee parents get a little more free time to screw off....paying attention only to their bank accounts.
Successful parents PREPARE a youngster for making their own decisions, in other words...to accept responsibilities. The extreme ends of the stick, abuse or denial usually end up with the same problems of misuse, no matter what the object is, alcohol or any other addiction. Young people who are introduced to activities that are DONE by a family member, hence the entire family, "develop" <- key word!...interests other than addictions. Just a short example...one glass of beer AFTER chores were done, and a friend was over for conversation or for planning a trip, is a LOT different than focusing the attention on how much consuming of alcohol or whatever substance one can take/abuse.

 

[DeLaPortilla]

I've been looking into this issue for several months now, and it seems no matter what statisic one uncovers, there is always one to rebutt it, so honestly the strongest point that still remains unchalleneged is that the drinking age should be lowered simply because it is our right. If no one finds it ludacris that one could be sent home in a body bag after serving their country, yet they still could not have a drink back at home, there is something extremely wrong with our ethics in this country

 

[ctenidae]

I think you can leave that last clause as a stand alone statement there, DeLaPortilla.

 

[JimG.]

If any keg-headded, draft-dodgin' MF like the one presently occupying the White House can order you into harms way, based on the whim of a few top a-hole politicians, I say...darn right...anyone over 13 deserves the right to responsibly consume alcohol. What the raising of the drinking age has done in this society is to let all the absentee parents get a little more free time to screw off....paying attention only to their bank accounts.
Successful parents PREPARE a youngster for making their own decisions, in other words...to accept responsibilities. The extreme ends of the stick, abuse or denial usually end up with the same problems of misuse, no matter what the object is, alcohol or any other addiction. Young people who are introduced to activities that are DONE by a family member, hence the entire family, "develop" <- key word!...interests other than addictions. Just a short example...one glass of beer AFTER chores were done, and a friend was over for conversation or for planning a trip, is a LOT different than focusing the attention on how much consuming of alcohol or whatever substance one can take/abuse.

This argument sums it up best...forbidden fruit always tastes the sweetest, so if you make it illegal for your children to drink, all you really do is:

1) put them in the position of breaking the law, because they will experiment.

2) deny them the education they need to consume alcohol responsibly.

This is a parental issue, not a legal one.

 

[dmc]

This is a parental issue, not a legal one.

My Dad used to let me drink a beer or two when I was a teenager..
Also let me shoot guns...


I actually have a lot of respect for both things now..

I guess that parenting stuff has some merit...

 

[JimG.]

I actually have a lot of respect for both things now..

I guess that parenting stuff has some merit...

My parents let me have a glass of wine occasionally when I was as young as 10 during special occasions or holidays. My parents even got a little drunk with me at a frat party when I was in college. My Dad and I played a few games of beer-pong...both of us had to chug one!

Needless to say, my frat brothers thought my parents were the coolest thing on Earth. Because alcohol was NEVER a big deal to me, I was never a falling down, barfing on shoes, wreck my car kind of drinker as a result.

I have allowed my 11 and 9 year olds to try a sip or two of wine or beer, and my 3 year old has taken a sip of the bubbly at New Years (the bubbles got him to make a funny face that was priceless). I'm sure there are those who will cringe and think I abuse my kids, but I look at it quite the opposite way...not teaching them and not letting them try alcohol is more abusive because the stuff is rampant in our society...they had better learn how to deal with it responsibly!