Mount Snow changes Snowmaking plan!

[BeanoNYC]

Oh, and by the way, they served Mimosas in real glasses to the season passholders this morning. About 400 in attendance (based on my best guess). Very classy!

Was this advertised? Is there a passholder's mailing list I'm missing out on?

 

[trtaylor]

I'm really get sick and tired of people bitching about Killington and it's problems. I don't read the Killington threads because it's the same people repeating the same things over and over again. HOWEVER, this is NOT a killington thread and the Killington crap is leaking into this one. The Killington thing is simple. If you don't like what they're doing, don't ski there. Enough said! :smash:

Take a chill pill dude.

 

[Greg]

Was this advertised? Is there a passholder's mailing list I'm missing out on?

PM clenois.

 

[snowman]

Take a chill pill dude.

It's like a kid in a back seat asking "Are we there yet" over and over. Repeating the same facts 4,371 times in one forum doesn't make them any more interesting or make any more of a point...it's just annoying. It's making the people who feel shunned by K seem like whiners to me. You have something new to say about K? Great! Say it. However, people basically cut and pasting yet another post listing the same damn bunch of gripes drives me up the wall. One post I read had a list of gripes and half of them were the same gripes listed twice. Whiners!

 

[trtaylor]

It's like a kid in a back seat asking "Are we there yet" over and over. Repeating the same facts 4,371 times in one forum doesn't make them any more interesting or make any more of a point...it's just annoying. It's making the people who feel shunned by K seem like whiners to me. You have something new to say about K? Great! Say it. However, people basically cut and pasting yet another post listing the same damn bunch of gripes drives me up the wall. One post I read had a list of gripes and half of them were the same gripes listed twice. Whiners!

This summer-like weather is making us all stir crazy. Once we all start skiing things wil be so much better.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

It's like a kid in a back seat asking "Are we there yet" over and over. Repeating the same facts 4,371 times in one forum doesn't make them any more interesting or make any more of a point...it's just annoying. It's making the people who feel shunned by K seem like whiners to me. You have something new to say about K? Great! Say it. However, people basically cut and pasting yet another post listing the same damn bunch of gripes drives me up the wall. One post I read had a list of gripes and half of them were the same gripes listed twice. Whiners!

I haven't skied at Killington in almost 10 years, but I know bullshit when I smell it and I won't apologize for mentioning it when someone else opens the door with a transparent shill.

If this upsets your own little utopia here, maybe you should switch to decaf.

Sincerely,

The Ministry of Truth

 

[Newpylong]

I'd actually suggest that Peak has one of the most efficient spin machines out there. If this were an SP/Powdr situation, I'm confident it wouldn't be greeted with the same reception here.

To steal a quote from Office Space, yeah, im going to have to disagree with you there. At this point, if it was SP/POWDR, people would beg them to do something like this. I do not understood how it is considered spin at all. They couldn't get the permits in time for next season, so they went to plan B. As for environmental destruction, draw your own conclusions.

 

[Greg]

It's like a kid in a back seat asking "Are we there yet" over and over. Repeating the same facts 4,371 times in one forum doesn't make them any more interesting or make any more of a point...it's just annoying. It's making the people who feel shunned by K seem like whiners to me. You have something new to say about K? Great! Say it. However, people basically cut and pasting yet another post listing the same damn bunch of gripes drives me up the wall. One post I read had a list of gripes and half of them were the same gripes listed twice. Whiners!

Newsflash: this is an internet message board. We're supposed to be proficiient at "whining" especially during the off-season. Oh yeah, one more thing: whining about whining is also whining... :roll:

 

[snowman]

Oh yeah, one more thing: whining about whining is also whining... :roll:

LOL. True, I haven't been whining nearly as long though. It took me 3 months of reading the same list of gripes over and over again to reach my breaking point. :-D

 

[Tin Woodsman]

LOL. True, I haven't been whining nearly as long though. It took me 3 months of reading the same list of gripes over and over again to reach my breaking point. :-D

Really? You knew about the closure of Skyeship Stage 1 three months ago? You knew about the massive price increases in the kids programs three months ago. If you've been reading the same gripes over and over again, then you've either not been paying attention, or you can't read.

 

[millerm277]

LOL. True, I haven't been whining nearly as long though. It took me 3 months of reading the same list of gripes over and over again to reach my breaking point. :-D

The reason people keep creating new K threads, is because SP/Powdr keep making more bad decisions. :uzi:

Back to topic...

 

[threecy]

To steal a quote from Office Space, yeah, im going to have to disagree with you there. At this point, if it was SP/POWDR, people would beg them to do something like this. I do not understood how it is considered spin at all. They couldn't get the permits in time for next season, so they went to plan B. As for environmental destruction, draw your own conclusions.

Is this were SP/Powdr, people would be trashing them for giving up on or messing up the Somerset situation...or taking the cheap way out...or something like that, who knows. But it wouldn't be greeted the same way here is the point.

 

[drjeff]

Is this were SP/Powdr, people would be trashing them for giving up on or messing up the Somerset situation...or taking the cheap way out...or something like that, who knows. But it wouldn't be greeted the same way here is the point.

If this were SP/POWDR they wouldn't have been as proactive to embark on a project like this in the first place. Real interesting thread over on killingtonzone.com where one of the regulars both here and there (skidork) had a party at his place at K last weekend and Dave Rathburn, one of the biggies at K was there and subjected himself to open questions from the guests. It's all about running the place at a profit, and once that's done, then they'll embark on more substantial upgrades, including keeping lift capacity at the same/maybe a slight increase while REDUCING the number of lifts. As for fee increases, to paraphrase a response, they won't be operating with "loss leaders" and thats why the fees are the fees, and this was specifically referenced to childcare/ski school where the number of folks using the program for 30+ days a year is what led to them eliminating the daycare/ski school season pass. Enough digression from me.

Peak resorts/Mount Snow simply did this because they're committed to making Mount Snow one of the premier East coast ski areas and are ready to get it there in a hurry, and water is the key for them.

 

[threecy]

If this were SP/POWDR they wouldn't have been as proactive to embark on a project like this in the first place. Real interesting thread over on killingtonzone.com where one of the regulars both here and there (skidork) had a party at his place at K last weekend and Dave Rathburn, one of the biggies at K was there and subjected himself to open questions from the guests. It's all about running the place at a profit, and once that's done, then they'll embark on more substantial upgrades, including keeping lift capacity at the same/maybe a slight increase while REDUCING the number of lifts. As for fee increases, to paraphrase a response, they won't be operating with "loss leaders" and thats why the fees are the fees, and this was specifically referenced to childcare/ski school where the number of folks using the program for 30+ days a year is what led to them eliminating the daycare/ski school season pass. Enough digression from me.

I doubt Peak came up with this whole thing in the past 6 months - these plans were likely put together likely before ASC. KMart already linked to a big water source a few years ago, I'm just using this as a hypothetical - I don't think SP/Powdr would be stupid enough to not have a backup plan in getting necessary water if they were in the same situation.

That stuff about the party sounds like gossip at best, but its smart business. There are too many useless lifts at Killington.

Powering investments from profits means there will likely be a steady flow of improvments from that point forward - many ski areas use a chunk of capital then spend years trying to get that profit back, making minimal investments from that point forward.

Peak resorts/Mount Snow simply did this because they're committed to making Mount Snow one of the premier East coast ski areas and are ready to get it there in a hurry...

I hate to sound like I'm knocking Peak all the time, because I'm not, but this philosophy has not worked well in New England historically - from large ski areas such as the Ski LTD/ASC disaster to mid sized ski areas such as Ragged. Large up front investments have their way of coming back and biting the investors.

 

[drjeff]

I doubt Peak came up with this whole thing in the past 6 months - these plans were likely put together likely before ASC. KMart already linked to a big water source a few years ago, I'm just using this as a hypothetical - I don't think SP/Powdr would be stupid enough to not have a backup plan in getting necessary water if they were in the same situation.

That stuff about the party sounds like gossip at best, but its smart business. There are too many useless lifts at Killington.

Here's the link to the thread:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18911

Powering investments from profits means there will likely be a steady flow of improvments from that point forward - many ski areas use a chunk of capital then spend years trying to get that profit back, making minimal investments from that point forward.



I hate to sound like I'm knocking Peak all the time, because I'm not, but this philosophy has not worked well in New England historically - from large ski areas such as the Ski LTD/ASC disaster to mid sized ski areas such as Ragged. Large up front investments have their way of coming back and biting the investors.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the current Peak/Mount Snow situation different than those past ownership changes you referenced? Peaks aquistions/improvement strategies aren't anything like SKI Ltd's/ASC in that Peaks primary focus is running a ski area, not real estate development. Secondly, comparing Mount Snow to Ragged is definately apples to oranges considering the exposure based on skiers visits that Mount Snow once had, and even at it roughly 400,000 level that its been the past few years, thats still more than Ragged will likely ever have in a season, so the buzz around this "revitalization" of Mount Snow will be met with alot more folks who are already familiar with the place and hence much more likely to return and see what its about.

Also, Peak resorts has publically said their looking to increase skier/rider visits, while POWDR has been quoted multiple times saying they want to decrease hill volume.

 

[threecy]

Here's the link to the thread:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the current Peak/Mount Snow situation different than those past ownership changes you referenced? Peaks aquistions/improvement strategies aren't anything like SKI Ltd's/ASC in that Peaks primary focus is running a ski area, not real estate development. Secondly, comparing Mount Snow to Ragged is definately apples to oranges considering the exposure based on skiers visits that Mount Snow once had, and even at it roughly 400,000 level that its been the past few years, thats still more than Ragged will likely ever have in a season, so the buzz around this "revitalization" of Mount Snow will be met with alot more folks who are already familiar with the place and hence much more likely to return and see what its about.

Also, Peak resorts has publically said their looking to increase skier/rider visits, while POWDR has been quoted multiple times saying they want to decrease hill volume.

I'm just talking expansion/improvement dollars. Sure, ASC was going after real estate development, but they poured a boatload into lifts/lodges/trails/snowmaking when they still had cash. An example of dumping big bucks up front. Like Ragged - they followed a steady growth level until they decided to put in the 6pack/add trails/the nice base facilities/etc.

 

[tree_skier]

How did a Mt. Sneaux thread turn into a bush kmart one.

Mount snow purchased the Howe farm property many years ago with the intent of being able to put a snowmaking reservior there if thier plan for Harriman/somerset fell through, not for recreational purposes. With the new plan the howe farm will be part of the system just not the whole pond.

In regards to philosophy I have heard from management that they would rather have 7000 happy skiers on a weekend day then 14000 unhappy ones. That speaks volumnes about the difference between Peaks and Powdr as it appears that with powdr you can take out the happy/unhappy and insert paying more/less.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm just talking expansion/improvement dollars. Sure, ASC was going after real estate development, but they poured a boatload into lifts/lodges/trails/snowmaking when they still had cash. An example of dumping big bucks up front. Like Ragged - they followed a steady growth level until they decided to put in the 6pack/add trails/the nice base facilities/etc.

The only one talking about massive dollops of cashup front is you. You've been arguing against that red herring all summer long, and yet no one has advocated that position. I can only conclude from this thatyou are either a Powdr/SP shill, or you lack the most basic skills of reading comprehension. Clearly it's not the latter.

No one. NO ONE...has argued that Powdr/SP should come in and drop $28MM like ASC did on Sugarbush or some such. You hold up Peaks as an example of this reckless up front spending when in fact their capital program this year is nothing of the sort. It simply delivers a notable bump from historical baselines while addressing clear areas of need and providing hope for the future that these guys know what they're doing.

K-Mart has done nothing. Zero. They have compounded this by 1) refusing to help their customers understand how this lack of "front of the house" improvements fits into a longer term plan and 2) completely screwing the pooch on pricing, with decisions that are incredibly short-sighted. Sure, they may cut back everything to achieve some sort of brief, hollow profitability, but it most certainly will NOT be a basis for future growth. Why would I want to take my family (or mixed ability level tour group) there mid-week if it's only a 2000' vertical mountain with lousy cruising terrain? If I wanted that I could go to many otherplaces that don't offer as many downsides as K-Mart. As for the "loss leader" comment, I don't believe a word of it. I'll eat my hat if they lost money on their kids programs last year. Those programs are nice little profit centers for most ski areas, and K-Mart's new pricing structure is well beyond its comparables.

Seriously, stop bending over backwards in your effort to defend these guys - you just look silly arguing against a case no one is making.

 

[snowman]

You K whiners kill me. It's like "Who in the hell do Powdr think they are trying to make money at Killington. They should lose money for OUR benefit!"

What in fact is going on is they took all of the BS freebees out of the system to get some people off the friggin' hill so the people who are PAYING can actually find a spot on a trail to ski. Heaven forbid the people paying for full freight lift tickets have some snow to ski on by removing the freeloaders. They are also going with the maximum profit per sale business model versus the let's get everyone here at any cost model which is the way most resorts are run these days. The bottom line in the end is they only need half as many skiers to show up to make the same amount of money. If half as many skiers show up they are going to be twice as happy due to shorter lines and more snow to ski on and are likely to be willing to pay more to come back next time. Powdr is also conducting financial prudence by wanting to get a season under their belts at K to see what the REAL numbers are (which may be quite different to what the financials said they were when they bought the place) before making some decisions on how much money to spend and where. That is another smart business savy move. Seriously, you friggin K whiners are the biggest bunch of whiney never-owned-a-business-in-your-lifetimes-and-never-will experts on nothing out there.

P.S. - Quoting something said on Kzone that was quoted by someone at a party (where probably everyone was drunk) is about 100 times worse than quoting wiki as the gospel, and people who quote wiki as the gospel is the whole premise of Steven Colbert's COMEDY show.

 

[Greg]

You K whiners kill me. It's like "Who in the hell do Powdr think they are trying to make money at Killington. They should lose money for OUR benefit!"

What in fact is going on is they took all of the BS freebees out of the system to get some people off the friggin' hill so the people who are PAYING can actually find a spot on a trail to ski. Heaven forbid the people paying for full freight lift tickets have some snow to ski on by removing the freeloaders. They are also going with the maximum profit per sale business model versus the let's get everyone here at any cost model which is the way most resorts are run these days. The bottom line in the end is they only need half as many skiers to show up to make the same amount of money. If half as many skiers show up they are going to be twice as happy due to shorter lines and more snow to ski on and are likely to be willing to pay more to come back next time. Powdr is also conducting financial prudence by wanting to get a season under their belts at K to see what the REAL numbers are (which may be quite different to what the financials said they were when they bought the place) before making some decisions on how much money to spend and where. That is another smart business savy move. Seriously, you friggin K whiners are the biggest bunch of whiney never-owned-a-business-in-your-lifetimes-and-never-will experts on nothing out there.

Are you whining again?