My favorite Killington upper mountain lift plan, this week.

[Highway Star]

No seriously. After mulling this over for what, 3-4 seasons now, I've decided on the.....

"Official Highway Star Approved Killington Upper Mountain Lift Plan Scheme"

Here it is (sorry for the MS paint edit of one of my old maps):

Consists of:

- Quad chair from Double Dipper/GN intersection to the top of Downdraft
- Chair specs:
- ~1000 ft long, ~400 ft vert
- 1500 rides/hour
- 450 ft/min
- 72 ft chair spacing (long)
- 28 Chairs
- ~6 towers
- 2.3 minute ride time
- Bottom drive, small top terminal
- Grading of loading area next to Double Dipper/GN
- Grading of unloading area at top of Downdraft
- Liftline through (and loss of) lower Catwalk
- Automated snowmaking on Upper Downdraft?

Pros:

- Allows early and late season skiing and riding of all ablities off this lift and the glades triple with up/downloading on the K-1
- Relatively low cost lift install - low HP drive, only a few towers and chairs, off the shelf quad, power is not a problem
- Accessable construction area
- Modest lift capacity to keep unload area from getting mobbed yet sufficient to bring everyone back up to the K-1 for downloading in timely manner.
- Estimated capacity of ~2000 ski visits per day with glades triple+new quad
- Estimated capacity of ~800-1000 ski visits per day quad only
- Ready access to Peak lodge
- K-1 lift is the best for uploading and downloading.
- Minimal tree cutting and grading
- Takes advantage of maximum altitude and optimal northern exposure for early opening, and potentially very late season closing.
- Services premium terrain, could be excellent moguls with regular snowmaking
- Very good "in-season" 1st recovery zone, could make snow with automated system quickly after a thaw-freeze, providing good soft snow skiing/bumps when the rest of the mountain is still ice.....and building a base for late season skiing.
- Could run the K-1 year round on weekends, providing service to this upper mountain lift
- Early/Late season skiing is a tourist attraction.
- Better season to season continuity of visits.

Cons:

- Hasn't been done yet.
- Costs money.

Discuss!

 

[SIKSKIER]

OH--SA-KUM-LPS hhmm.O su-- cu- lips.Maybe it's me.I don't know.

 

[roark]

add to cons:

Really one serves a purpose for early season (and maybe late, should it be decided that the NRT area would be the spring ops - unlikely). Would sit idle rest of season - possible maintenacce issues?
Loss of lower catwalk
More expensive than a surface lift that could serve the same purpose
If it was operated regular season puts even more people in the same unload zone as the most popular lift -> increased traffic density at K peak.
Doesn't fit into K marketing plan of 'we want the okemo skiers, not the 20 something ski bums'.

 

[ta&idaho]

I like it. Killington desperately needs to be broken up into more short-vertical pods. The current layout has far too much uninterrupted vertical. Chop it up! In fact, why don't they dismantle some of the icky long lifts (my motto's always been: "when your quads start to burn, you've had enough turns") and use the spare parts to build even more short lifts-to-nowhere? Maybe they could put in a lift from the second row of the parking lot to the line for the K-1 gondola (ooh, maybe they could incorporate a mid-station at the waffle haus!). Or maybe a first-of-its-kind magic escalator from the first floor to the second floor of one of the lodges. The possibilities are endless!

 

[Highway Star]

add to cons:

Really one serves a purpose for early season (and maybe late, should it be decided that the NRT area would be the spring ops - unlikely). Would sit idle rest of season - possible maintenacce issues?

I'm talking about late season/spring on the new quad+superstar+glades, then reducing to the new quad+glades, and then just the new quad.

The quad could be used mid season as a "quick recovery area". So right after a thaw, they make snow up there and have soft bumps while the rest of the mountain is still ice. I've seen it done in the glades area before.

Loss of lower catwalk

Not a big loss. We're talking the little section that is just a connector.

More expensive than a surface lift that could serve the same purpose

Possibly, but this would be a legitimate skiable lift for a fast opening.

If it was operated regular season puts even more people in the same unload zone as the most popular lift -> increased traffic density at K peak.

That's why I picked a capacity comarable to double chair. I think the unloading area could handle it with proper grading.

Doesn't fit into K marketing plan of 'we want the okemo skiers, not the 20 something ski bums'.

They want to sell real estate. And real estate sells better at a true 4-season resort.

 

[Highway Star]

I like it. Killington desperately needs to be broken up into more short-vertical pods. The current layout has far too much uninterrupted vertical. Chop it up! In fact, why don't they dismantle some of the icky long lifts (my motto's always been: "when your quads start to burn, you've had enough turns") and use the spare parts to build even more short lifts-to-nowhere? Maybe they could put in a lift from the second row of the parking lot to the line for the K-1 gondola (ooh, maybe they could incorporate a mid-station at the waffle haus!). Or maybe a first-of-its-kind magic escalator from the first floor to the second floor of one of the lodges. The possibilities are endless!

Hah....you wouldn't like Stowe.

But seriously, Killington is a mix of large lifts and small lifts. Some of those small pods can be fun, such as the needles quad, little pico triple, outback, etc.

 

[ta&idaho]

Hah....you wouldn't like Stowe.

But seriously, Killington is a mix of large lifts and small lifts. Some of those small pods can be fun, such as the needles quad, little pico triple, outback, etc.

I actually agree that a variety of terrain pods can be fun, but 400 vertical is pretty darn small, especially given the way that most traffic flows off the top of the peak. And there are two lifts that already serve similar purposes in nearby areas.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I like it. Killington desperately needs to be broken up into more short-vertical pods. The current layout has far too much uninterrupted vertical. Chop it up! In fact, why don't they dismantle some of the icky long lifts (my motto's always been: "when your quads start to burn, you've had enough turns") and use the spare parts to build even more short lifts-to-nowhere? Maybe they could put in a lift from the second row of the parking lot to the line for the K-1 gondola (ooh, maybe they could incorporate a mid-station at the waffle haus!). Or maybe a first-of-its-kind magic escalator from the first floor to the second floor of one of the lodges. The possibilities are endless!

Funny take. I like it. :LOL

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

I use to draw plans for ski areas, trails where I thought they should go, lifts etc. I was 10.

 

[Highway Star]

I actually agree that a variety of terrain pods can be fun, but 400 vertical is pretty darn small, especially given the way that most traffic flows of the top of the peak. And there are two lifts that already serve similar purposes in nearby areas.

Yes, it's not huge. But it could be all moguls.....most mogul courses are less than 400ft vert. A couple good mogul lines and a jib park would be plenty fun for an early opening, or in late may-june.

 

[WWF-VT]

I just heard from my best inside source that POWDR Corp will hold a special board meeting to fast track funding for this new lift

 

[bigbob]

HS, did you run any numbers to see if this will ever pay for itself?? You are talking about spending millions of dollars for a few thousand skier visits, kind of expensive if you ask me.

 

[Highway Star]

HS, did you run any numbers to see if this will ever pay for itself?? You are talking about spending millions of dollars for a few thousand skier visits, kind of expensive if you ask me.

Posted earlier on K-zone (feel free to run your own numbers):

Maybe, maybe not. You're talking about less than installed $1m for a small quad lift like this. It's really just the cheapest lift possible these days. And that's NEW. Add in the act 250, automated snomaking, and we're talking about $1.5m, $2m tops. Lets go with $2m.

ROI?

Killington isn't open right now. The aren't selling passes. They have zero income. They blew some snow last week which may or may not have helped their pass sales. This is snow that they would have blown anyway, that people haven't payed to ski on yet.....every year they blow snow that melts before they open.....it is wasted.

They can open this lift while they are already running the K-1 in mid-October, on roughly 5 acre ft of snow costing roughly $10K. Cost to run the lift....? $500/day? Plus other staff, already there. But since I don't know the real costs, I'm not going to get into it.

Say they can average 800 skier visits per day Fri-Sun on a mid-october weekend. Sell $40 tickets. Say the overall yield per skier visit is $50 (food bev, etc). That's a $120,000 weekend. That's not like a mid season weekend, but it's probably more than they bring in mid season on a tuesday.........and it's better than nothing. It SHOULD be profitable.

Lets just say for the sake of arguement that it costs them an average $70K in additional costs to operate for one of these early/late season weekends, but they bring in an addtional $120K. So a $50k profit/weekend. Lets say they operate for 8 additional weekends per year, 3-4 in the fall and 4-5 in the spring. That's ~$400k profit per year......and maybe my numbers are optimistic. Then you can consider the additional visits from people that com early season and then come back mid-season. And the additional pass sales. Etc.

It think if you sat down and figured it out, the actual ROI would be around 5-8 years.....

 

[WWF-VT]

Say they can average 800 skier visits per day Fri-Sun on a mid-october weekend. Sell $40 tickets. Say the overall yield per skier visit is $50 (food bev, etc). That's a $120,000 weekend. That's not like a mid season weekend, but it's probably more than they bring in mid season on a tuesday.........and it's better than nothing. It SHOULD be profitable.

I think 800 tickets a day is wildly optimistic. The vast majority of early/late season skier visits are by season passholders.

 

[bvibert]

I think 800 tickets a day is wildly optimistic. The vast majority of early/late season skier visits are by season passholders.

That's exactly what I was thinking, especially if they continue to use the insanely high early season pricing strategy that they used last year.

 

[drjeff]

Say they can average 800 skier visits per day Fri-Sun on a mid-october weekend. Sell $40 tickets. Say the overall yield per skier visit is $50 (food bev, etc). That's a $120,000 weekend. That's not like a mid season weekend, but it's probably more than they bring in mid season on a tuesday.........and it's better than nothing. It SHOULD be profitable.

I think 800 tickets a day is wildly optimistic. The vast majority of early/late season skier visits are by season passholders.

Highwaystar math is often about as accurate and realistic as federal gov't math

 

[Highway Star]

Say they can average 800 skier visits per day Fri-Sun on a mid-october weekend. Sell $40 tickets. Say the overall yield per skier visit is $50 (food bev, etc). That's a $120,000 weekend. That's not like a mid season weekend, but it's probably more than they bring in mid season on a tuesday.........and it's better than nothing. It SHOULD be profitable.

I think 800 tickets a day is wildly optimistic. The vast majority of early/late season skier visits are by season passholders.

You're not showing much grasp of the ticket yield vs. overall yield concept here.

 

[WWF-VT]

You're not showing much grasp of the ticket yield vs. overall yield concept here.

Ok...so all the season pass holders drink 10 beers at $5 each at the bar so you get your $50 yield per skier visit. Oh wait - I forget to divide the cost of a season pass by number of days skied so they only need to drink 6 beers.

 

[Smellytele]

40 bucks to ski 1 WROD with a bunch of people from CT and NY? No thanks

 

[drjeff]

You're not showing much grasp of the ticket yield vs. overall yield concept here.

Yup and all those early season folks will be buying 5 day ski week packages and putting their kids in ski school to increase the yield

Most early season customers are a) college age/early 20's day trippers and b) passholders both of whom tend to use less of the food and beverage offerings than your typical mid season customer