New [Used] Car Help

[Marc]

Why on Earth did I use the word "essentially" so much in that post?

 

[Greg]

Well, "smart" might not be the right word for it. The commercials you see on TV would like you to believe that. Some of the more advanced systems will use accelerometers to compare the direction of the car and the position of the steering wheel to and apply break to one or two wheels to aid in a skid. But that can be done on a car that drives any combination of wheels.

All modern AWD systems have forms of slip control. An AWD system by definition has three differentials and no transfer case: a front, center and rear. If all the differentials were standard open differentials, than as soon as one tire lost traction, all the torque would be driven to the slipping wheel, as is the nature of differentials.

2WD cars have the same problem, which is why various limited slip systems were invented, from the famous GM posi traction to modern traction control which essentially applies break to the slipping wheel, which "fools" the differential by essentially apply resistance torque, the same as the ground does under non-slip conditions.

AWD cars use similar concepts except it is essentially doubled. Subaru uses viscous fluid clutches to limit slip in their systems. This is sort of like a torque converter, one on each side of both the front and rear diff. Audi uses electronic traction control on the front and rear with a Torsen center diff., which is a really cool all mechanical system which under a low torque condition from one side, actually multiplies the torque by a certain gear factor to the other side (the side with more traction).

Manufacturers can balance the torque to a certain extent going to the front and rear drive wheels under normal driving conditions with AWD, Subaru puts a bias to the front to create more understeer (as most cars are set up for because it was deemed "safer" than being in an oversteer condition). I believe BMW, in their X cars (325xi, 330xi, etc.) uses a rear torque bias for the more performance oriented drive.

The point is, though, under normal driving conditions, the mechanical nature of AWD dictates torque is actually flowing to all four drive wheels, and both front and rear drive systems are being used, increasing drivetrain power loss.

My brain just melted. :blink:

Interesting post though...

 

[Marc]

Well, I was actually wrong about some of it.

Subaru uses a viscous coupling as the center differential. I think they use electronic traction control at the front and rear. Also, apparenlty not everyone shares my definition of "transfer case" and "differential" but that could be up for some debate.

 

[hammer]

Well, I was actually wrong about some of it.

Subaru uses a viscous coupling as the center differential. I think they use electronic traction control at the front and rear. Also, apparenlty not everyone shares my definition of "transfer case" and "differential" but that could be up for some debate.

Here's a link I found if you want to get technical on the Subaru AWD system:

http://www.autoworld.com/news/Subaru/Subaru_All-Wheel.htm

I don't claim to understand any of it, but I can tell you that my Subaru handles the snow better than my AWD Toyota Highlander...

Going back on the original topic, IMO if you want a good AWD system without breaking the bank than a Subaru's your best bet.

 

[NYDrew]

After all the talk about subaru's, I think I'm getting a civic. Here's why.

I wanted a subaru because I am a ski instructor but:

In december I am moving to smuggs for 6 monthes to work...really need AWD except when I am there I usually hitchhike everywhere but B-town and then I take a bus or my car (an of course I will only take my car in nice weather...even if it is a subaru)

after that, I am moving back to NYC for 2 years for the NYC teaching fellowship to get my MA in teaching. What the hell do I need a subaru in NYC for anyway.

when thats over, I will have earned approximately $90,000 minus $4000 for grad school and say $30,000 to clear up my credit and pay off school loans (most of undergrad was scholorships) So I got $40000 in cash cause I lived with my parents though that.

In two years my father promised me his subaru for $9000 when the lease expires. On almost the same date (ironically) I plan on movng to vermont an teaching up there. So I got my subaru, $40k and a decent job, not to mention I'll go back to instruction so skiing will be free.


In conclusion...why should I waste my money on the extra cost of buying and the gas prices in a subaru when I don't even need one right now and by the time I will need one, my father is passing his to me. Done deal. Why didn't I think of this before.

 

[skibum1321]

In december I am moving to smuggs for 6 monthes to work

We should get together for some turns this winter

 

[NYDrew]

We should get together for some turns this winter

Totally man, I could even hook you up with tickets, I think I get one ticket for every 2 days I work or something like that.

 

[Marc]

After all the talk about subaru's, I think I'm getting a civic. Here's why.

I wanted a subaru because I am a ski instructor but:

In december I am moving to smuggs for 6 monthes to work...really need AWD except when I am there I usually hitchhike everywhere but B-town and then I take a bus or my car (an of course I will only take my car in nice weather...even if it is a subaru)

after that, I am moving back to NYC for 2 years for the NYC teaching fellowship to get my MA in teaching. What the hell do I need a subaru in NYC for anyway.

when thats over, I will have earned approximately $90,000 minus $4000 for grad school and say $30,000 to clear up my credit and pay off school loans (most of undergrad was scholorships) So I got $40000 in cash cause I lived with my parents though that.

In two years my father promised me his subaru for $9000 when the lease expires. On almost the same date (ironically) I plan on movng to vermont an teaching up there. So I got my subaru, $40k and a decent job, not to mention I'll go back to instruction so skiing will be free.


In conclusion...why should I waste my money on the extra cost of buying and the gas prices in a subaru when I don't even need one right now and by the time I will need one, my father is passing his to me. Done deal. Why didn't I think of this before.

Except that your $90,000 will be about $55,000 -$60,000 after taxes.

 

[Marc]

I wished my parents let me live with them, and paid for food, car insurance, cable, phone, internet and electricty.

My father told me I could move back home but the rent he'd charge me would be more than anywhere else I could find to rent plus I'd still be buying my own food and cooking meals for them.


But that's ok, there wasn't any way in hell I was going to move back home anyway.

 

[skibum1321]

Totally man, I could even hook you up with tickets, I think I get one ticket for every 2 days I work or something like that.

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have a season pass. Thanks for the offer though.

 

[skibum1321]

I wished my parents let me live with them, and paid for food, car insurance, cable, phone, internet and electricty.

My father told me I could move back home but the rent he'd charge me would be more than anywhere else I could find to rent plus I'd still be buying my own food and cooking meals for them.


But that's ok, there wasn't any way in hell I was going to move back home anyway.

Yeah, I would have significantly more money if I had lived at home. But I'm glad that I don't live at home anymore since it a) got me out of RI and b) keeps me sane.

 

[Mike P.]

My 98 Forester with a 5 speed gets 27 MPG on the highway

I did have a front wheel drive civic that got even better mileage & with snow tires was very good in the snow, For long rides over 45 MPH 5 speeds get better mileage.

 

[Marc]

My 98 Forester with a 5 speed gets 27 MPG on the highway

I did have a front wheel drive civic that got even better mileage & with snow tires was very good in the snow, For long rides over 45 MPH 5 speeds get better mileage.

Yeah, well depending on the gearing of course. But in general there is less power loss going through a manual transmission than an automatic which loses power through the torque converter and the less efficient planetary gear set.

 

[NYDrew]

END OF STORY

So today I looked at two cars. Lets see opinions if I made the right choice.

Just to know, I had $5200 and did not want to finance or borrow from my dad.

Car 1
98 Civic EX- $5000
95000 miles, mostly highway, at least one cross country trip to cali and back.
Fully loaded sunroof and all, extremely clean.
Typical pits from pebbles while highway driving...but a fair amount
Minor dent on rear quarter...definately from another car door...so minor I asked the seller why he even mentioned it in the ad.
Seller was very honest and uneducated mechanically (limited ability to lie).
Car was in 1 accident, hit front and rear. I picked this car apart for proof of the accident and found none, therefore owner told truth that the damage was only to bumper covers and was repaired exceptionally well.

Car 2
2001 Civic LX $7500, 42000mi
Same car minus sunroof and the radio was not stock (and looked stupid the way it was in)
Seller was the cousin of a used car dealer...the cousin was very pushy
Whole life in NYC...typical paint cracks on bumper from city parking.
Hood had a strange stain on it that I couldnt seem to get out.
Car was extremely clean, although interior was not as immaculate as the other.
Discrepancies on car fax (mileage has not changed in 10 months, strange repair record).
When taken for a drive, it was driven hard as if to show off speed.


My conclusions:
2001 has warrenty...but only drivetrain and that will not break in 2 years
I liked the 98 seller better and the car appeared to be cared for better.
The 98 was under my price range...the 2001 was way over.
98 had a cleaner engine compartment and seemed to be treated much better.
All in all the cars + and - were on par.
2001 car fax weirdness vs accident for 98
98 owner was willing to have the car taken to honda to be checked out (too far from home to see my guy)
2001 would not allow the car to see a mechanic without deposit.

Final conclusion, I got the 98, deposit down Did I make the right choice. I think so. Opinions? I am actually somewhat proficient at body work and confident in my own ability to judge the impact of an old accident. Warranty was useless. Although 3 years older and double the milage, car seemed to be in overall better condition (can't judge on paint, you just cant...and the 98 was shiny anyway) Engine purred, shifted smooth (er then the 2001).

I am happy, this is the first car that I bought with 100% my own money and I like that. Its truly truly mine.

 

[ALLSKIING]

Yeah, well depending on the gearing of course.

Or the Ratio in the transmission. My mustang had 3.73 in the rear but had the 5th gear in the transmission extended and the gas mileage was better then the stock 2.73 gears. The best of both worlds...great on the track and on the highway.

 

[Marc]

Or the Ratio in the transmission. My mustang had 3.73 in the rear but had the 5th gear in the transmission extended and the gas mileage was better then the stock 2.73 gears. The best of both worlds...great on the track and on the highway.

Right, final drive ratio (combined transmission and rear end) is what matters.


I was talking to a guy at a cruise night last week who had a 4.73 rear end in his '67 GTO, with the Muncie M21. I'd hate to think how often you have to look for a gas station with that set up.

 

[skibum1321]

I'm not a car guy but that would have been my choice as well probably. Especially since the first car was mostly highway and the second was mostly city driving. The kid probably always drove the car hard like during the test drive so the first one is probably in better shape.

 

[ALLSKIING]

END OF STORY

So today I looked at two cars. Lets see opinions if I made the right choice.

Just to know, I had $5200 and did not want to finance or borrow from my dad.

Car 1
98 Civic EX- $5000
95000 miles, mostly highway, at least one cross country trip to cali and back.
Fully loaded sunroof and all, extremely clean.
Typical pits from pebbles while highway driving...but a fair amount
Minor dent on rear quarter...definately from another car door...so minor I asked the seller why he even mentioned it in the ad.
Seller was very honest and uneducated mechanically (limited ability to lie).
Car was in 1 accident, hit front and rear. I picked this car apart for proof of the accident and found none, therefore owner told truth that the damage was only to bumper covers and was repaired exceptionally well.

Car 2
2001 Civic LX $7500, 42000mi
Same car minus sunroof and the radio was not stock (and looked stupid the way it was in)
Seller was the cousin of a used car dealer...the cousin was very pushy
Whole life in NYC...typical paint cracks on bumper from city parking.
Hood had a strange stain on it that I couldnt seem to get out.
Car was extremely clean, although interior was not as immaculate as the other.
Discrepancies on car fax (mileage has not changed in 10 months, strange repair record).
When taken for a drive, it was driven hard as if to show off speed.


My conclusions:
2001 has warrenty...but only drivetrain and that will not break in 2 years
I liked the 98 seller better and the car appeared to be cared for better.
The 98 was under my price range...the 2001 was way over.
98 had a cleaner engine compartment and seemed to be treated much better.
All in all the cars + and - were on par.
2001 car fax weirdness vs accident for 98
98 owner was willing to have the car taken to honda to be checked out (too far from home to see my guy)
2001 would not allow the car to see a mechanic without deposit.

Final conclusion, I got the 98, deposit down Did I make the right choice. I think so. Opinions? I am actually somewhat proficient at body work and confident in my own ability to judge the impact of an old accident. Warranty was useless. Although 3 years older and double the milage, car seemed to be in overall better condition (can't judge on paint, you just cant...and the 98 was shiny anyway) Engine purred, shifted smooth (er then the 2001).

I am happy, this is the first car that I bought with 100% my own money and I like that. Its truly truly mine.

I think you did...Well maintained the civic can go well over 200k.

 

[bigbog]

...

Agree with others, I honestly think you can get pretty near as much performance from top-notch snows plus added weight(box of sand) over your rear axle.
For the $5200+ envelope, a good Used or 2years_ago civic or corolla is in the ballpark...imho.

 

[thaller1]

I'm not a Honda fan myself, however I hear nothing but good things about them. It all depends on what you are looking for. They are one of the most reliable companies around ... I think your choice was a good one!