Northeast Region Statistics

[UVSHTSTRM]

It is quite easy to ski entire Killington top to bottom without going up hill or riding a lift. What are you talking about?[/QUOTE

I must say it sucks and not anything that appeals to me, unless I park at the base of Skyship then it would becomes necessary. Actually the biggest gripe I have about it is the people making huge GS turns at a very slow rate of speed (sucks for passing), and the people who decide to sit on the downhill side of the bridge you need to cross to get to the bottom.........I have almost killed a couple adults and kids who sat there. Probably the only time on a mountain where I almost lost it and failed to bite my lip.

 

[Smellytele]

I suspect the reason the Cat and the Loaf retain snow longer than NoVT areas that get more inches is a combination of temperature, vertical, and aspect. Most VT areas that have over 2k vert have base areas below 2k feet unlike a place like Wildcat. Not sure about the Loaf but I would bet above the Snubber at the main lodge is pretty close to 2k.

I like the idea of a similar vert list but rather with most realistic vert not involving excessive flats or traverses such as those at Killington and Sunday River. Jay and Sugarbush sure don't feel any where near as much vert as they both claim due to flats and run outs. Smuggs at 2610 probably goes down to Morse, also not realistic. Loaf includes the Snubber, Stowe includes the Toll House. Some places this type of thing would be splitting hairs but most of the big mountains get to hype vertical even though no one realistically ever skis that vertical unless they make a special point to do so out of masochistic punishment.

I would agree but some on the list such as Cannon and Wildcat you do ski the whole vert

 

[EPB]

I've picked out areas that have lifts with 1700+ vert.

ME
Sugarloaf

NH
Cannon
Loon
Wildcat

VT
Jay
Killington (Starship, count it if you want. I wouldn't)
Mad River Glen
Smugglers Notch
Stowe (2)
Stratton

QC
Le Massif (3) (Including new two stage gondola). Massif also has the longest trail pod at 2200+feet
Tremblant (3)
Mont Sainte Anne (2)

NY
Whiteface (2)
Gore

 

[WWF-VT]

I suspect the reason the Cat and the Loaf retain snow longer than NoVT areas that get more inches is a combination of temperature, vertical, and aspect. Most VT areas that have over 2k vert have base areas below 2k feet unlike a place like Wildcat. Not sure about the Loaf but I would bet above the Snubber at the main lodge is pretty close to 2k.

FWIW

Sugarloaf
Summit 4,237 ft Base 1,417 ft. Vertical 2,820 ft.
Wildcat
Summit 4,062 ft Base 2,000 Vertical 2,112

 

[riverc0il]

FWIW

Sugarloaf
Summit 4,237 ft Base 1,417 ft. Vertical 2,820 ft.
Wildcat
Summit 4,062 ft Base 2,000 Vertical 2,112

My post in context was not comparing top to bottom vertical but actual realistic skiable vertical. Wildcat's total vert includes their beginner area and Loaf's total vert includes the condo serving Snubber. More interesting totals would be the actual vert of the Wildcat Quad and the Loaf vert from summit to the Superquad.

 

[Geoff]

I used Zoneski.com for some direction. It's a Quebecois site similar to alpinezone. I can speak a decent amount of french, so following it isn't all that bad. The lesser known Quebec areas were difficult to find.

As for Jay, ski Vermont claims Jay receives 31 feet,

As for Jay Peak, Steve Wright, the Marketing & Sales VP, uses the internet handle "355inches". He would claim a higher average if it were true.

Doesn't matter. Either number is the most in the east.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

My post in context was not comparing top to bottom vertical but actual realistic skiable vertical. Wildcat's total vert includes their beginner area and Loaf's total vert includes the condo serving Snubber. More interesting totals would be the actual vert of the Wildcat Quad and the Loaf vert from summit to the Superquad.

I think SL's vert with out snummber is 2400-2500ft

 

[Geoff]

My post in context was not comparing top to bottom vertical but actual realistic skiable vertical. Wildcat's total vert includes their beginner area and Loaf's total vert includes the condo serving Snubber. More interesting totals would be the actual vert of the Wildcat Quad and the Loaf vert from summit to the Superquad.

If you're a green circle skier, Kansas at Sunday River is a big attraction. Until POWDR took them off the map, Great Eastern and 4 Mile Trail at Killington were big attractions. Just because you don't ski them doesn't mean some 7 year old in a pink helmet doing pizza & french fries doesn't think it's the coolest thing they've done in their life.

My favorite mountain in the US, Monarch, only has 1000' of vertical. Size doesn't matter if you have the skiing surface.

 

[Smellytele]

My post in context was not comparing top to bottom vertical but actual realistic skiable vertical. Wildcat's total vert includes their beginner area and Loaf's total vert includes the condo serving Snubber. More interesting totals would be the actual vert of the Wildcat Quad and the Loaf vert from summit to the Superquad.

At Wildcat the bottom of the beginner area is at the same height as the bottom of the quad. Within 5 feet

 

[loafnut]

I think the difference in snowfall totals between sugarloaf and northern vermont and how long the snow lasts is pretty easy to reconcile.

All snow is not created equally, but it melts at more or less an equal rate per mass of frozen liquid.

Northern vermont gets a lot of snow from upslope events and clippers while clipping the western edge of coastal events. Upslope and clipper snowfall is generally very light with 20:1 or even 30:1 ratios. (inches of snow to melted liquid equivalent, so thats 30 inches from 1 inch of rain) Colder, drier weather results in higher ratios as well and VT gets its snow in the coldest, driest months (January). The western edge of coastal systems also tends to be drier fluffier snow.

Sugarloaf gets almost all of its snow from coastal events, and it gets a ton of snow in the spring and fall. April is a prime month when the loaf is getting destroyed and its melting everywhere else. Being on the eastern slopes of the Appalachians, sugarloaf gets the wettest heaviest snow. Sitting in the middle of a nor'easter is going to get you max 15:1 ratios with 10:1 and lower ratios very common. There was an october storm a few years ago that dropped 4 feet at sugarloaf and the NWS digital precip map was showing 8 inches of rain falling in the valley. That's a 6:1 ratio and very heavy snow.

However, when the end of the season comes around, and all of this snow has compacted and frozen, there is simply more liquid frozen on the ground at sugarloaf, hence it takes longer to melt. I suspect that more liquid falls as snow at sugarloaf, but in terms of inches they get blown away. Indeed, looking at any weather data set will show you that the highest yearly precip totals in new england occur along the southeast coast. This is somewhat similar to the difference between squaw valley and alta. Both claim 500 inches but squaw gets firehosed directly by the pac jet and alta just gets the leftovers after dumping on squaw and nevada. The difference is that alta gets some of the lightest snow in north america and stretches their precip to 500 inches and squaw gets some of the heaviest snow that compacts their totals to 500.

Another thing to consider is that during spring, continental landmasses heat up first while coastal areas tend to lag. This is particularly true in maine where spring backdoor cold fronts backing in from the north atlantic frequently envelop the state in clouds, cool temperatures and fog until june, while points south and west are enjoying spring. VT much closer to being continental while sugarloaf is clearly coastal. VT also gets blasted in the spring by warm air masses flying up the western slope of the greens and flooding the valley.

So in closing. VT gets lower density snow which results in higher totals, but more compaction and less resistance to spring melting per inch of snow, while simultaneously getting warmer spring temperatures and more sun due to their more continental climate. Sugarloaf gets heavier snow, resulting in more precip and more resistance to melting per inch of snow, while getting cooler and clouder springs due to its proximity to the coast. This difference is further backed up by tony crocker's site that details that vermont gets more snowfall during la nina years where clipper type systems are favored while during el nino's, sugarloaf is one of the only eastern ski areas to be favored to get above average snowfall. Coastal systems are favored during el nino's due to the increased activity in the sub-tropical jet.

 

[SkiingInABlueDream]

Until POWDR took them off the map, Great Eastern and 4 Mile Trail at Killington were big attractions. Just because you don't ski them doesn't mean some 7 year old in a pink helmet doing pizza & french fries doesn't think it's the coolest thing they've done in their life.

I was that kid! (minus the pink helmet). My dad always parked at KBL and once in a while we'd ski all the way down to the gondola base. It felt like an endless run into a deep forest, as the trees get taller towards the bottom.

 

[bigbob]

Loafnut, you beat me to it! Lake effect snow melts a lot faster than coastal snowstorm snow. Density/ water content plays a big part in the durability of snow. That is why machine made snow lasts so long, high water content.

 

[riverc0il]

If you're a green circle skier, Kansas at Sunday River is a big attraction. Until POWDR took them off the map, Great Eastern and 4 Mile Trail at Killington were big attractions. Just because you don't ski them doesn't mean some 7 year old in a pink helmet doing pizza & french fries doesn't think it's the coolest thing they've done in their life.

My favorite mountain in the US, Monarch, only has 1000' of vertical. Size doesn't matter if you have the skiing surface.

Kansas and 3 Mile Trail cross several advanced and steep trails, have dangerous intersections, requires poling, etc. I skied Kansas as a crappy upper beginner/lower intermediate with my family back in the day. We all agreed it was the pits. 3 Mile Trail was the worst though..... SR has that entire North Peak area for beginner skiers. You can't tell me beginners get excited about Kansas and Three Mile Trail. Maybe they get excited about skiing off the summit of the highest peaks at Sunday River but those trails are for the birds, even from a beginner perspective.

 

[Masskier]

I think the difference in snowfall totals between sugarloaf and northern vermont and how long the snow lasts is pretty easy to reconcile.

All snow is not created equally, but it melts at more or less an equal rate per mass of frozen liquid.

Northern vermont gets a lot of snow from upslope events and clippers while clipping the western edge of coastal events. Upslope and clipper snowfall is generally very light with 20:1 or even 30:1 ratios. (inches of snow to melted liquid equivalent, so thats 30 inches from 1 inch of rain) Colder, drier weather results in higher ratios as well and VT gets its snow in the coldest, driest months (January). The western edge of coastal systems also tends to be drier fluffier snow.

Sugarloaf gets almost all of its snow from coastal events, and it gets a ton of snow in the spring and fall. April is a prime month when the loaf is getting destroyed and its melting everywhere else. Being on the eastern slopes of the Appalachians, sugarloaf gets the wettest heaviest snow. Sitting in the middle of a nor'easter is going to get you max 15:1 ratios with 10:1 and lower ratios very common. There was an october storm a few years ago that dropped 4 feet at sugarloaf and the NWS digital precip map was showing 8 inches of rain falling in the valley. That's a 6:1 ratio and very heavy snow.

However, when the end of the season comes around, and all of this snow has compacted and frozen, there is simply more liquid frozen on the ground at sugarloaf, hence it takes longer to melt. I suspect that more liquid falls as snow at sugarloaf, but in terms of inches they get blown away. Indeed, looking at any weather data set will show you that the highest yearly precip totals in new england occur along the southeast coast. This is somewhat similar to the difference between squaw valley and alta. Both claim 500 inches but squaw gets firehosed directly by the pac jet and alta just gets the leftovers after dumping on squaw and nevada. The difference is that alta gets some of the lightest snow in north america and stretches their precip to 500 inches and squaw gets some of the heaviest snow that compacts their totals to 500.

Another thing to consider is that during spring, continental landmasses heat up first while coastal areas tend to lag. This is particularly true in maine where spring backdoor cold fronts backing in from the north atlantic frequently envelop the state in clouds, cool temperatures and fog until june, while points south and west are enjoying spring. VT much closer to being continental while sugarloaf is clearly coastal. VT also gets blasted in the spring by warm air masses flying up the western slope of the greens and flooding the valley.

So in closing. VT gets lower density snow which results in higher totals, but more compaction and less resistance to spring melting per inch of snow, while simultaneously getting warmer spring temperatures and more sun due to their more continental climate. Sugarloaf gets heavier snow, resulting in more precip and more resistance to melting per inch of snow, while getting cooler and clouder springs due to its proximity to the coast. This difference is further backed up by tony crocker's site that details that vermont gets more snowfall during la nina years where clipper type systems are favored while during el nino's, sugarloaf is one of the only eastern ski areas to be favored to get above average snowfall. Coastal systems are favored during el nino's due to the increased activity in the sub-tropical jet.

That was really interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[jfrenchu]

bromley doesn't have 300 skiiable acres,nice place but not even close to that

 

[crank]

If you take long run outs and flats out of the equation, of all the places listed I think perhaps Le Massif has the most sustained vertical drop.

 

[EPB]

I compiled a list ranking the vertical of ski areas in the northeast by the resort's lift that covers the largest vertical drop. Omitted are two stage gondolas like the ones found at Killinton and Le Massif. Otherwise, everything was fair game from Massachusetts to Quebec.

Skilifts.org was used for lift data. Sugarbush's North Ridge express (Sugarbush's entry) was measured via google earth because it was not a new installation. I also verified Waterville's high speed quad vertical on google earth because it was shortened. If you believe that any lifts/areas are missing, let me know.

I am also planning a top 20 lifts that would count multiple lifts at the same resort in some cases.

Top 20 Vertical by Lift
1 Whiteface Mountain 2432
2 Le Massif 2211
3 Smuggler's Notch 2150
4 Stowe 2100
5 Jay Peak 2050
5 Mont Sainte Anne 2050
7 Wildcat Mountain 2041
8 Tremblant 2026
9 Cannon Mountain 2021
10 Mad River Glen 1972
11 Sugarloaf 1783
12 Stratton Mountain 1742
13 Loon Mountain 1738
14 Sugarbush 1714
15 Gore Mountain 1703
15 Ascutney 1673
17 Okemo 1673
18 Attitash 1672
19 Killington 1642
20 Mount Snow 1600

 

[Mapnut]

Very interesting, EPB. Based on everything I've seen through the years, I think all those numbers are correct.

 

[EPB]

Here's the last one.

Top 20 Chairlifts by Vertical
Resort Chairlift Vertical
1 Whiteface Mountain Cloudsplitter Gondola 2432
2 Le Massif Maillard Express 2211
3 Le Massif Grande Pointe Express 2159
4 Smuggler's Notch Summit Double 2150
5 Stowe Gondola 2100
6 Jay Peak Aerial Tram 2050
7 Mont Sainte Anne Summit Gondola 2050
8 Wildcat Mountain Summit Express 2041
9 Stowe Four Runner Quad 2040
10 Tremblant Summit Gondola 2026
11 Cannon Mountain Aerial Tram 2021
12 Mad River Glen Single Chair 1972
13 Whiteface Mountain Summit Quad 1852
14 Sugarloaf Superquad 1783
15 Stratton Mountain Summit Gondola 1742
16 Loon Mountain Four Person Gondola 1738
17 Tremblant Soleil Express 1728
18 Sugarbush North Ridge Express 1714
19 Tremblant Express Duncan 1712
20 Gore Mountain Gondola 1703

I'm not sure, but my spacing doen't seem to work properly

 

[tjf67]

The willmington chair @ whiteface also has 1700 ft of vert service.

Thanks for putting that together. Interesting