Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

[thetrailboss]

My thoughts exactly! Talisker has been the primary developer from basically Snow Park North towards Empire Canyon. Empire Canyon is separated from parts of the McConkey area of PCMR by not much more than a rope and about a gallon of diesel fuel in a cat. If Powdr continues to be in denial of how much they screwed up, I don't think its that far fetched to see Talisker to work its relationship with DV to make things happen. Plus let's be honest, of the 3 non snowboarding resorts left in the US, DV has to be the most likely to allow snowboarding next, since there's a bunch of folks with BIG $$ who either board or who have kids/grandkids who board that would likely want to buy a 7 to 8 figure house at DV's new or existing residential developments than they can seriously turn a shoulder against for that much longer and still continue to expand to new developable areas!

DV is nowhere close to allowing snowboarders. The VAST majority of their clientele don't want snowboarders. I don't know who you are referring to...except maybe the owner of Skullcandy...but there are relatively few snowboarders who are as you described. Plus Edgar Stern, who owned a majority of the company, apparently institutionalized the ban such that if the other stakeholders want snowboards they will have to buy his family out.

 

[Hawkshot99]

You're assuming that DV does the real estate development. They do some, but you're right that Talisker is also developing land at DV. My point was that I believe that DV owns the ski terrain.

I have never read anything, that says anything other than that.

 

[jaytrem]

After a bit of internet searching I can see at one point (around 2000) Deer Valley was leasing some land for skiing from United Park City Mines...

http://google.brand.edgar-online.co...D=255121-5035-26760&SessionID=pTCFFHHAD_c1Zn2

Not sure if that land went to Talisker when they sold. I've been under the impression that Deer Valley owned the land the early part of the ski area was built on. But when they expanded into Empire they leased. Not sure who owns it now. Gun to my head I'm not sure who I would guess.

 

[Highway Star]

Vail and Talisker are the biggest, smartest operators in the business. Clearly we can assume they have multiple angles on how they would get DV involved in a PC multi-resort destination in the next few years. Its all part of the plan. I'll bet you'll see all three resorts connected under one ticket within the next five years, with or without the current PCMR base area.....

 

[thetrailboss]

Vail and Talisker are the biggest, smartest operators in the business. Clearly we can assume they have multiple angles on how they would get DV involved in a PC multi-resort destination in the next few years. Its all part of the plan. I'll bet you'll see all three resorts connected under one ticket within the next five years, with or without the current PCMR base area.....

http://onewasatch.com/

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Vail and Talisker are the biggest, smartest operators in the business. Clearly we can assume they have multiple angles on how they would get DV involved in a PC multi-resort destination in the next few years. Its all part of the plan. I'll bet you'll see all three resorts connected under one ticket within the next five years, with or without the current PCMR base area.....

Vail certainly fits that description.

Talisker? Not so much.

 

[mbedle]

http://www.parkrecord.com/City/ci_25914967/Powdr-CEO-talks-of-towns-lawsuititis

Interesting article. He seems to be more willing to accept how bad this is looking for PCMR. But holding strong to if they lose, PCMR will no longer operate.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't feel sorry for them...it comes across, yet again, as a sort of pity piece. They are supposed to be sophisticated business people and they really blew it.

And this was interesting:

the Cumming family's recent purchase of a majority interest in Snowbird Ski and Summer Resort. The deal did not involve Powdr Corp. Cumming said the Snowbird deal is separated from the dispute with Talisker Land Holdings, LLC. He said his family has longtime ties to Snowbird. The deal involved the Cumming family and the family of Snowbird's co-founder, Dick Bass.
A Wall Street analyst who covers the publicly traded Vail Resorts recently issued a report indicating the Snowbird deal is a hedge by the Cumming family based on the lawsuit against Talisker Land Holdings, LLC. Cumming disagreed with the analyst assessment.

"We would have bought Snowbird regardless of what is happening. We would have invested with the Bass family regardless of what's happening over here. It's unfortunate timing. Does it hedge us? I don't know. Have them call me and explain to me how we hedged, and we'll see if I agree," Cumming said.

Cumming said it would have been difficult for Powdr Corp. to justify a "major acquisition" like the Snowbird deal amid the uncertainty with PCMR.

 

[mbedle]

I agree, don't feel sorry for them either. Unfortunately, you make a business mistake like that, you are going to have to pay the piper one why or another. Who I do feel sorry for is the town and its residences and business owners. They are the ones that might ultimately suffer from this screw up. I guess in response to people thinking that they won't closed the doors on the resort (its too big), its not as if PCMR will be walking away from a huge piece of prime mountain ski terrain and shutting down. They only own some prime real estate on very little land.

I don't feel sorry for them...it comes across, yet again, as a sort of pity piece. They are supposed to be sophisticated business people and they really blew it.

And this was interesting:

 

[drjeff]

The Cumming family is just going through the 5 phases of loss and grief here....

#1 - denial (already through that one)

#2 - Anger (either already through that or just about through it)

#3 - Bargaining (got some of that going on)

#4 - Depression (forthcoming I'd presume)

#5 - Acceptance (makes an offer to Vail to complete the cycle at some point)

 

[AdironRider]

So are you all saying they should just hand over their lifts and the keys and be done with it?

They made a mistake, but if I were them, I'm not just handing over millions in capital equipment to Vail either. Vail can pay for it if they like, but otherwise, hardball gets hardball returned.

 

[VTKilarney]

Vail can pay for it if they like, but otherwise, hardball gets hardball returned.

Vail may have played hardball, but at the end of the day their position was proven to be correct. One could more easily say that PCMR caused countless dollars to be wasted rather than accepting that their position was indefensible.

 

[marcski]

The guy is just out of touch and seems to not be a great businessman.

"Cumming said it would have been difficult for Powdr Corp. to justify a "major acquisition" like the Snowbird deal amid the uncertainty with PCMR."

Why not? When you're about to lose (or actually, already lost) one of your biggest assets and revenue generators, what better time would there be to invest in a new one?

 

[thetrailboss]

So are you all saying they should just hand over their lifts and the keys and be done with it?

They made a mistake, but if I were them, I'm not just handing over millions in capital equipment to Vail either. Vail can pay for it if they like, but otherwise, hardball gets hardball returned.

FWIW Talisker started the suit and really is the party in interest. Vail just stepped in and took over the suit.

And as what to do, I can't tell them. I imagine that they are considering an appeal and/or working on an exit strategy. This makes me think that they are just still in denial.

 

[steamboat1]

http://www.parkrecord.com/park_city...nd-clock-plans-dismantle-lifts-infrastructure

 

[Edd]

http://www.parkrecord.com/park_city...nd-clock-plans-dismantle-lifts-infrastructure

So they'd take their lifts if they get evicted, which I kind of understand. Why would they modify the routes of a few of them? The article doesn't explain much.

 

[bigbob]

Since some of the lift line goes above the property POWDR owns, they will shorten the lift so they can open the bottom section and open the lower terrain which they own.

 

[Edd]

Ah, I didn't realize it would be a partial eviction.

 

[drjeff]

The Cumming family is just going through the 5 phases of loss and grief here....

#1 - denial (already through that one)

#2 - Anger (either already through that or just about through it)

#3 - Bargaining (got some of that going on)

#4 - Depression (forthcoming I'd presume)

#5 - Acceptance (makes an offer to Vail to complete the cycle at some point)

Definitely moving into phase 3 now with that last press release!

A full buy out offer by the start of the ski season is my guess.....

 

[thetrailboss]

It's posturing to the judge who is considering an eviction order and to Talisker/Vail. They don't want to be evicted and instead want as much time to negotiate an exit strategy. It also shows how much they screwed themselves. Killington might be getting some six packs.


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