Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

[VTKilarney]

If I were Powdr Corp, I would be negotiating a walk-away payment with Vail. Powdr still owns the base, parking, and water rights. There is also going to be an argument over whether or not the ski lifts have to stay. It's worth it to both sides to negotiate a Vail takeover now that we know the lease is void. It would be VERY foolish for Powdr to count on winning on appeal.

 

[thetrailboss]

Park City Record article

Here it is:

http://www.parkrecord.com/ci_25808763/judge-sides-talisker-critical-rulings

And Nick had originally entitled his thread as "Utah Judge Hands Over Park City to Vail." I would disagree with that characterization a little bit: POWDR handed over Park City Mountain Resort to Vail. This is the most epic fail in recent ski history IMHO.

Some technical things: Cummings says that they want and deserve a trial. For the non-lawyer types the Judge here (who I have appeared before and who is a smart guy and has gotten high marks since taking the bench) was told by one side that there was no need to go to trial because there are no facts in dispute: POWDR failed to renew as stated in the contract. So it was purely a legal issue. The Judge agreed with Vail and essentially agreed that a jury could only conclude that POWDR screwed up.

That said POWDR did try some other arguments and tried basically to say "hey it's unfair." Utah, generally, is pretty conservative. And most states with regards to contracts, especially commercial ones, are. You have two very sophisticated companies with lawyers and smart people. They should know what to do and be smart enough to look out for themselves. We don't want courts just throwing out contracts left and right because then no business would happen. They had a deal and POWDR blew it. It's like two parties agreeing to the sale of a house and set the date for closing and the buyer says, a week before closing, "oh yes, we're moving forward. We just bought a washer and dryer, and a lawnmower", and then the closing comes and buyer isn't there. We'd have to presume that the deal was off. POWDR did the same thing here--telling Talisker in 2010 or early 2011 that they were going to do some lift work and then not sending the letter saying that they were going ahead.

As to lifts and infrastructure it would depend on the lease contract. Then state law.

POWDR was not the first tenant to run PCMR. After the mining company wanted to get out of it, they found a guy named Edgar Stern. Sound familiar? He ran PCMR in the 1970's, deemed it not ideal, and went on to buy some land on the other side of town and build this somewhat successful area called Deer Valley. Then came Nick Bandami. Then PCMR. Cumming readily admits that he had no idea about the ski business and learned from Bandami.

And that leads me to my thoughts on POWDR: amateur hour. Someone with a lot of money and time and no real street smarts. I cringed with their Killington stuff, but this is just shear stupidity. It really reflects badly on POWDR and how the industry perceives it. Perhaps Talisker is deemed as evil, but everyone knows that it is a shrewd company.

This article confirms it. Cummings does not get that they could not resolve things and they went to court and lost. There is no more settlement. It is over. He probably won't get it until the Summit County Sherriff shows up with the signed order booting them. Talisker/Vail will just wait them out--this stuff about running a Woodward Base Camp with terrain skiing on the lower mountain is not a winning proposition. They will eventually run out of money, go bankrupt, and then Talisker/Vail will be there at the auction.

Snowbird, last week, really distanced themselves from POWDR by going as far as saying that POWDR will be a separate going entity. But Daddy Cumming is old and they've made it clear that anyone with that surname is going to be involved. So I am really worried about what kind of shit show is coming.

Maybe I'm harsh, but I've watched from my perspective and it just became clearer and clearer that PCMR was in a bad situation.

 

[steamboat1]

 

[deadheadskier]

So what do people think? Does Cummings have the financial resources to survive this or will such a massive screw up implode Powdr all together and they have to divest Killington, Mount Bachelor and their other resort holdings?

Could this also potentially change Cummings recent financial commitments with Snowbird?

 

[VTKilarney]

I haven't been following this closely, so I may be missing something, but how can Vail run the resort with no parking, base lodge, water rights, etc.?

 

[jimmywilson69]

an easily installed connector lift(s) from the Canyons.

Powdr is screwed. They deserve it though, for getting to renew a lease so sweet...

 

[drjeff]

So what do people think? Does Cummings have the financial resources to survive this or will such a massive screw up implode Powdr all together and they have to divest Killington, Mount Bachelor and their other resort holdings?

Could this also potentially change Cummings recent financial commitments with Snowbird?

Since depending on the closing stock prices on any given day and who's number's you believe, the Cumming's family has assets in the 10+ figure range, I think that they easily have the financial resources to weather this colossal screw up. If the family chooses to devote a decent sized amount of their family wealth towards the overall situation is a completely different question and one that likely won't be known until the proverbial dust settles and they reassess their desire and commitment to have the ski industry be a part of their families business portfolio

Wouldn't surprise me in the least in their are more than a few empty bottles of the Cumming's favorite beverages around their homesteads this AM and the need for some serious quantities of advil for their likely hangovers after needing to have a few stuff drinks after that decision came down yesterday afternoon

 

[thetrailboss]

an easily installed connector lift(s) from the Canyons.

Powdr is screwed. They deserve it though, for getting to renew a lease so sweet...

Exactly.

 

[thetrailboss]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57972850-78/pcmr-talisker-vail-park.html.csp

 

[wa-loaf]

Sounds like they could exact some pretty high rents from Vail/Talisker for access to the lower slopes and access to Park City. Seems like the only viable option for them going forward short of selling the land as well

 

[4aprice]

Messy, but what does this mean? Does (what now is PCMR) become part of the Epic Pass family? Will having 2 resorts on that pass change the landscape of Utah ski tickets? I'm not a huge fan of the resorts in that valley (DV probably my fav) and prefer the front 4, but saving $ with a pass purchase and side trip to CO might make the 45 min trip from the condo worth it. Long way to go I know but the mind is always scheming.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

 

[abc]

I was just reading through the entire thread to see the history and came upon this one posted back 2 years ago:

Yeah but Alta, Snowbird, and Brighton are not, and will not be, for sale.

Trailboss, you got that one quite wrong. Though I won't blame you without the 20/20 hindsight I now have.

I realize I must be getting old. A lot of things I have been taking for granted can't be any more. Who would have thought of the eventuality of Dick Bass aging out of the picture and Snowbird sold to the very entity you hope NOT to?

I didn't count on both my doctor and dentist retiring before I do either

 

[thetrailboss]

I was just reading through the entire thread to see the history and came upon this one posted back 2 years ago:


Trailboss, you got that one quite wrong. Though I won't blame you without the 20/20 hindsight I now have.

I realize I must be getting old. A lot of things I have been taking for granted can't be any more. Who would have thought of the eventuality of Dick Bass aging out of the picture and Snowbird sold to the very entity you hope NOT to?

I didn't count on both my doctor and dentist retiring before I do either

Quite wrong? No I would not say that. There were no indications that Snowbird was for sale and, in fact, it wasn't really. At that time folks at Snowbird did tell me that Dick was getting old and that the family did not want the resort. Folks in the know told me that he had set up a trust to run the resort which made me scratch my head. The word about Cumming is only in the last few weeks. And it was Cumming, not POWDR, that bought the place. POWDR has nothing to do with Snowbird. Dick picked up the phone and called Cumming to step in because Cumming was an original investor in The Inn.

As to observations regarding the other resorts over the last two years I'd say that Brighton and Alta are not rumored to be vulnerable. Brighton is owned by Boyne but run by the Doyle Family who has done so for many years. Alta is owned by the descendants of SJ Quinney and Laughlin. They are quite involved.

I don't pass judgment as to Solitude because it is locally owned and operated but has been the receiving end of the Ski Link. I do wonder if Talisker has made offers to buy it. This would not surprise me if it does flip.

 

[abc]

The word about Cumming is only in the last few weeks. And it was Cumming, not POWDR, that bought the place. POWDR has nothing to do with Snowbird. Dick picked up the phone and called Cumming to step in because Cumming was an original investor in The Inn.

It doesn't matter that Cumming isn't POWDR.

For what it's worth, it could be YOU who "step in" after Bass. Whoever that was could change their mind and yet another new entity could "step in". After a few such transfer, it could easily be wrangled into Vail Resort! And it wouldn't take terribly long if Dick Bass steps OFF of it.

If I were Vail, I would go after ANY of the resort in that area whenever there's potential for them being available. Eventually, one or two of them might materialize.

That is, if the Vail operating model continues to work out profitably.

 

[thetrailboss]

It doesn't matter that Cumming isn't POWDR.

Snowbird seems to think it matters: http://www.snowbird.com/partnership/

 

[Nick]

So I realize I reposted this in it's own thread. I just felt the news deserved it's own thread. Thoughts? The original thread title wouldn't let someone reading the forum really have any clue with what happened sincethis all first went down, no?

 

[Nick]

TB: Thanks for clarifying more for me. I haven't read about this daily and only know it from skimming articles. The title I pulled direct from the Denver Post article, I believe. Anyway, your insight is as always incredibly detailed, and helps me really get what is going on!

 

[abc]

Snowbird seems to think it matters: http://www.snowbird.com/partnership/

I don't see the same as you from reading that same article.

It merely stating a fact that Cumming the person/family isn't the same as one of the company they own. That is legally correct. But I didn't read anything as to whether the distinction "matters" or not.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't see the same as you from reading that same article.

It merely stating a fact that Cumming the person/family isn't the same as one of the company they own. That is legally correct. But I didn't read anything as to whether the distinction "matters" or not.

It matters because Snowbird is distancing themselves from POWDR and the reason for it is because of the negative publicity. I think it's pretty clear:

The partnership is between the Bass and Cumming Families and does not involve Powdr Corp.

Nobody in the ski industry wants anything to do with POWDR; none of the resorts here want to talk about the dispute really. At a recent Ski Utah press event they placed the managers from PCMR and Canyons as far apart on the press table as possible.

POWDR involves Daddy Cumming's Money given to son FWIW.

 

[thetrailboss]

So I realize I reposted this in it's own thread. I just felt the news deserved it's own thread. Thoughts? The original thread title wouldn't let someone reading the forum really have any clue with what happened sincethis all first went down, no?

I can change the title