Park City/Talisker-Vail Lawsuit

[mbedle]

Rumor has it he was actual a Vail employee just waiting for a chance to F'up the lease deal. Now retired with a place at Vail and is own private island in the Caribbean.

Come on!!! That would go down as one of the best corporate sabotages ever!!! Plus, if true, we would be dealing with this issue today. I read somewhere he was let go prior to the lease deadline.

 

[trackbiker]

Cummings has no leverage, no end game and assclowns for legal representation.[/QUOTE

I have to agree that it appears (to this outsider looking in) that PCMR's counsel is holding PCMR's hand while PCMR walks off of a cliff. It is certainly possible, though, that PCMR is making terrible decisions after being fully advised of the consequences and their attorneys have no choice but to do their best in light of this.

Cummings lawyers may be assclowns but PCMR never really had a leg to stand on in the first place. I don't know how this will turn out but one thing is for sure.....the lawyers are winning. For a lot of lawyers (I hesitate to say most) it is not about winning or losing the case but how many hours they can bill. Every time there is an extension it gives them more hours to bill. They have no incentive to settle early.

 

[mbedle]

"The judge questioned the value attached to the PCMR terrain in the deal, saying there is not easy access to the acreage from the other Talisker Land Holdings, LLC ground involved in the deal."

I find this statement in the Park City Record article to be interesting. If he ends up siding more with PCMR on their view of the land, that might substantially lower the bond.

 

[StevePluvia]

I'm unclear on how Talisker/Vail could have any claim against Park Properties, Inc. Just because the have the same owner, Park Properties, Inc. is a separate incorporation, and as such, are protected from claims. Just as John Cummings assets are not in jeopardy from any lawsuit by Talisker/Vail. That is one of the key benefits of having a company incorporated, it shields your own personal assets from lawsuits and claims.

Bankruptcy law has very strong clawback provisions, particularly with respect to fraudulent transfers (all money that left the corp after the lease was not renewed). That money certainly made its way to Cummings/the Park Property owner. Once in bankruptcy the trustee is paid by the debtor's assets. This is the ultimate fox in a the hen house situation. The trustee knows he can get at shitloads of assets and get paid for a long time -- all on Cummings dime and Cummings can do nothing to stop it.

Long story short, with fraudulent transfer, every penny that left the corp would come back; Cummings would either pay directly or his assets would be foreclosed on -- those would include the Park Properties (aka the lower mtn). And Cummings would have the pleasure of paying for the lawsuit (all the bankruptcy trustee legal fees, think millions) that rape him. Put another way, Cummings would pay for the lawsuit that sued him, AND for his own legal defense and then lose the millions of settlement $. Ahhh the haaaarrrahhh...

 

[StevePluvia]

And finally, why do you feel that PCMR's lawyers are "assclowns"? I'm not a lawyer, but I just haven't read anything that would indicate that. You figure if they had made any big blunders in their fillings, it would have be called to attention.

I think the judge dismissing the majority of PCMR's claims pointed out a "few" (cough) blunders in their filings. Then there's repeatedly misrepresenting fairly obvious facts killing any credible argument they might have.... Yep that's legal assclownery at its best.

 

[StevePluvia]

I would not be surprised if Harris rules on the bond before Sept 3rd.

 

[mbedle]

Bankruptcy law has very strong clawback provisions, particularly with respect to fraudulent transfers (all money that left the corp after the lease was not renewed). That money certainly made its way to Cummings/the Park Property owner. Once in bankruptcy the trustee is paid by the debtor's assets. This is the ultimate fox in a the hen house situation. The trustee knows he can get at shitloads of assets and get paid for a long time -- all on Cummings dime and Cummings can do nothing to stop it.

Long story short, with fraudulent transfer, every penny that left the corp would come back; Cummings would either pay directly or his assets would be foreclosed on -- those would include the Park Properties (aka the lower mtn). And Cummings would have the pleasure of paying for the lawsuit (all the bankruptcy trustee legal fees, think millions) that rape him. Put another way, Cummings would pay for the lawsuit that sued him, AND for his own legal defense and then lose the millions of settlement $. Ahhh the haaaarrrahhh...

But you are assuming that the transfer took place after the lease expired or when they were notified by Talisker. Unless you have some insight into the financial world for PCMR and Powdr, I think thats a pretty bold statement to make. Also, lets not forget what his net worth is, and by no means is this going to through him or his family into the poor house.

 

[mbedle]

I think the judge dismissing the majority of PCMR's claims pointed out a "few" (cough) blunders in their filings. Then there's repeatedly misrepresenting fairly obvious facts killing any credible argument they might have.... Yep that's legal assclownery at its best.

So with that said, do you believe that another team of lawyers could have done it better in court, resulting in different rulings from the court? As far as misrepresenting fairly obvious facts, I'm not sure what facts you are talking about.

 

[StevePluvia]

"But you are assuming that the transfer took place after the lease expired or when they were notified by Talisker. Unless you have some insight into the financial world for PCMR and Powdr, I think thats a pretty bold statement to make."

Ummm bold no, PCMR depositions referenced in the filings admit PCMR paid out all cash that went in PCMR to the various owners or their entities. That's fraudulent transfer beginning on the date the lease expired.

 

[StevePluvia]

So with that said, do you believe that another team of lawyers could have done it better in court

It would be hard to have done it worse. They filed a lawsuit that was essentially bitch-slapped out of court. Their beef? THEY didn't renew a lease. Seriously? No credible attorney files that suit. Every good litigator I know would have negotiated a deal that never saw a day in court. Instead Cummings is facing a judgement, legal fees, and eviction, no ski resort and the world knows he's an assclown.

Ouch.

Legal 101, don't pick a fight you can't win. Particularly when an entire ski resort community's livelihood lies in the balance.

 

[VTKilarney]

They certainly weakened their negotiating position by engaging in obviously futile legal antics. Talisker now has them by the balls and as the clock ticks the town itself is becoming their enemy. They've got nowhere left to turn. I find it hard to believe that whatever deal is negotiated will be as good a deal for PCMR as they could have obtained months ago.

 

[mbedle]

"But you are assuming that the transfer took place after the lease expired or when they were notified by Talisker. Unless you have some insight into the financial world for PCMR and Powdr, I think thats a pretty bold statement to make."

Ummm bold no, PCMR depositions referenced in the filings admit PCMR paid out all cash that went in PCMR to the various owners or their entities. That's fraudulent transfer beginning on the date the lease expired.

My problem isn't with cunnings transferring profits from his company to his own accounts or some other entity that he owns. In privately held companies, the routine transfer of profits to owners is common. The question has to deal with your statement that is was fraudulent, I don't believe that either of us have enough facts to make that statement. It will also have to be proven that PCMR had any idea about how much talisker may have ultimately ask for. Talisker's initial offer was to lease the property to PCMR for 7.7 million. That amount could easy be made in a season of operating PCMR, so it wouldn't be necessary to leave 120+million sitting in PCMR's accounts.

Under the Fraudulent Transfer Act, it also needs to be proven that the transfer was done for the sole purpose of avoid pending debit or claims.

 

[StevePluvia]

" as the clock ticks the town itself is becoming their enemy. They've got nowhere left to turn. I find it hard to believe that whatever deal is negotiated will be as good a deal for PCMR as they could have obtained months ago."

yep, 100%.

And not to lose perspective, PCMR is a 1980's fuckingshithole. Its an eyesore. Its been a dump for years while Park City proper, Deer Valley and the Canyons all improved. That's the Cummings legacy. Well, that and his assclown crown.

 

[mbedle]

It would be hard to have done it worse. They filed a lawsuit that was essentially bitch-slapped out of court. Their beef? THEY didn't renew a lease. Seriously? No credible attorney files that suit. Every good litigator I know would have negotiated a deal that never saw a day in court. Instead Cummings is facing a judgement, legal fees, and eviction, no ski resort and the world knows he's an assclown.

Ouch.

Legal 101, don't pick a fight you can't win. Particularly when an entire ski resort community's livelihood lies in the balance.

I'll let this go at this point. Your resentment of Cumming and all thing Powdr is obvious, which doesn't allow you to evaluate this from a unprejudiced position.

 

[StevePluvia]

My problem isn't with cunnings transferring profits from his company to his own accounts or some other entity that he owns. In privately held companies, the routine transfer of profits to owners is common. The question has to deal with your statement that is was fraudulent, I don't believe that either of us have enough facts to make that statement.

You best stick to your day job.

" A transfer made by a debtor is fraudulent as to a creditor whose claim arose before the transfer was made if the transfer was made to an insider for an antecedent debt, the debtor was insolvent at the time, and the insider had reasonable cause to believe that the debtor was insolvent."

The facts prove Cummings and his related entities who received payouts are insiders; and, knew the lease expired (the court already ruled they faked up the renewal letter), therefore this is the date Talisker's claim "arose". PCMR's depos admit PCMR is now an empty shell because they paid all of the income out. Thus the transfers made them insolvent to the creditor Talisker.

Talisker has facts for summary judgement already. Its a matter of time and process before they can clawback every dime of Judgment they are awarded.

 

[StevePluvia]

Under the Fraudulent Transfer Act, it also needs to be proven that the transfer was done for the sole purpose of avoid pending debit or claims.

Uhh wrong. Try reading the act it's available online. Hint read both the BK code and State law, then case law surrounding both.

 

[thetrailboss]

yep, 100%.

And not to lose perspective, PCMR is a 1980's fuckingshithole. Its an eyesore. Its been a dump for years while Park City proper, Deer Valley and the Canyons all improved. That's the Cummings legacy. Well, that and his assclown crown.

Last season I skied PCMR for the first time. I was very surprised as to how shopworn some of the facilities were. Granted the six packs were nice, but the fixed grip lifts were very old....as in Nick Badami's tenure if not before.

 

[StevePluvia]

I'll let this go at this point. Your resentment of Cumming and all thing Powdr is obvious, which doesn't allow you to evaluate this from a unprejudiced position.

I have nothing against PCMR Cummings or their pathetic legal team. I just enjoy the play-by-play of this assclown drama. Why is it you've taken up defending the assclowns when you know so little of the law or facts involved?

 

[trackbiker]

It would be hard to have done it worse. They filed a lawsuit that was essentially bitch-slapped out of court. Their beef? THEY didn't renew a lease. Seriously? No credible attorney files that suit. Every good litigator I know would have negotiated a deal that never saw a day in court. Instead Cummings is facing a judgement, legal fees, and eviction, no ski resort and the world knows he's an assclown.

Ouch.

Legal 101, don't pick a fight you can't win. Particularly when an entire ski resort community's livelihood lies in the balance.

We don't know that the lawyers didn't recommend that PCMR make a settlement. Maybe Cummings is such an egotist that he refused to settle and wanted them to fight to the death. I don't know the man. But in either case, the lawyers are making a lot more money this way and there will be more to come for some time forward. They do know Cummings has very deep pockets.

 

[Domeskier]

We don't know that the lawyers didn't recommend that PCMR make a settlement. Maybe Cummings is such an egotist that he refused to settle and wanted them to fight to the death. I don't know the man. But in either case, the lawyers are making a lot more money this way and there will be more to come for some time forward. They do know Cummings has very deep pockets.

Not sure Talisker would have had any incentive to settle for anything less than a market-rate lease. They were probably waiting for a foot-fault for years to break that thing. But you're right - it's not clear when PCMR didn't just bite the bullet and cave.