Ski equipment fads

[Bumpsis]

I was just looking through some of the older threads (I'm new here) and an advice on novice boots caught my eye.
Teach ski was warning somebody to stay away from rear entry boots. It's sort of a moot point now. Practically you can't find these anymore.
The point is that I don't really think that rear entry boots were so bad, they were just branded that way so people would buy new stuff.

I feel that just like in any industry, fashion and fads and sometimes, concominant technical improvements are introduced and heavily flogged to drive sales of new stuff.

One one the best boots I've ever had was a screaming orange pair of Hanson Altas. Previous that I had a pair of Hanson Exhibitions. For those not old enough to remember these, they were THE rear entry boot that started the whole geneartion of these designs. Well, maybe Scotts were first...?
Super easy to enter and exit, warm, great support and overall function. And just two buckles!!!
A few of the top pros on the freestyle and racing circuits used them. They rocked!!!
Now, it's discredited design that even a beginner shouldn't touch.
How come??

Similar for shaped skis. Sure, there are some real advantages to this design and I can't say that I can really carve with my "straights" like I can with my shaped, but it's really the skill of the skier that makes the biggest difference.
I still love skiing on my straight skis (found a great pair, almost unused at a yard sale), especially if it's a bump day.
Yet, I take them in for a tune up and the shop guys look at me like some sort of retro grouch fossile that needs a shaped conversion.

 

[severine]

My understanding is that with rear entry boots, you don't have as much flexibility in the fit. The rear entry boots I've used have limited adjustments, making it difficult to get really comfortable in them as well as increasing response time between you and your skis. With the newer multi-buckle boots, you can fine tune the fit of the boot and make sure you have a snug fit. That snug fit is essential to skiing well. I know you listed multiple buckles as a down side ("and just two buckles"), but you really need them if you want your boots to fit propertly.
Yes, fads come and go, but I think the new boots are still light years ahead of rear entry boots in performance.

 

[teachski]

Also, many of the rear entry boots had one buckle with a pressure sensitive trigger that would release if bumped. I had this happen to me at Haystack one time. I lost the ski and the boot from the lift...talk about embarrassing.

severine is also correct about the boots not being nearly as responsive. You can still get rear entry at some shops and with second hand equipment.

 

[Bumpsis]

I'm sure that multiple micro adjustable buckles allow for custom fit for a wide range of ankle/foot sizes, something that was probably not easily acheived with the rear entry boots.
Since I also used 5 buckle boots, I can also say that there have been also multiple opportunities for various pressure points and necessary fidling which I never did experience with my Hansons. They were a customized fit, filled in with some waxy goo that eventually shifted to right spots. I guess I like simplicity. In other words, regradless of design, there always have been badly made or ill fitting boots out there.
I'm also sure that there were lots of crappy rear entry boots and thanks for relating the ski/boot release story! :wink: That's actually quite funny. Talking about safe release.
Like all equipment, boots have improved and I will have to dive into that scene once my current mid-entry Raichles expire.
I will still maintain that lots of changes are industry driven with the focus on the sales and profits rather than a true need to improve something.

 

[Bumpsis]

Yes, fads come and go, but I think the new boots are still light years ahead of rear entry boots in performance.

Not be argumentative, but I suppose it would be interesting to look at some measurable parameters of skiing perfromance and see if indeed there has been a quantum leap made in performance.
Although, I really don't think it would be possible to isolate the actual boot perfrmance data, but if one could look at racing results from 1970's and now, over similar courses maybe it would be possible to fish out some trends. My guess would be that course times have become faster but not by much. No quantum leaps, I'm sure, despite lots of room for speculation.
The new ski designes would probably account for majority of time improvements.

 

[jimme]

Has anyone noticed how much fatter skis are getting? Last season my Crossbows were considered fat, but this year have been relegated to mid-fat. Now "true" fat ski must have a 90mm waist or greater. That's the kind of marketing BS we have to watch out for. And unless you ski every powder day here in the East and have the cash for a quiver of skis what good is a 90mm waisted ski? But, I am now seeing more and more "fat" skis on the slopes. In three years they'll be saying that what you really need is a 55mm waisted ski. Granted a fat ski is great in powder and spring corn, but I think they are being over-marketed to the one pair skier.

Jimme

 

[riverc0il]

rear entry boots are pure evil unless you're a newbie and just starting out. even then, front entry is the way to go. this is not marketing or hype or fad... it is performance, technique, comfort, fit, and safety. neither are so called 'shaped' skis a fad or marketing BS. the adjustments made to the size of the tail, waist, and tip of the ski has made skis higher performance, the sport easier to learn, and more fun. the increased performance of shaped skis over straight is simply unbelievable. even upgrading my skis in the past 6 years i've noticed amazing increases in performance.

jimme brings up a good point about the marketing of the 'mid-fat' and fats, especially in new england. i can ski powder just fine on my boards that are 103/62/92. i wonder how the ski shops are pushing the various styles of skis?

we could suggest any number of ski gear and appearel could be a fad. but what remains is consumer driven demand. if rear entry boots were in demand, they'd still be made in high numbers. but they're not in demand because they're an aweful product. front entry boots are time tested and performance tested, definitely not a fad. mid-fats and "skater gear" apparel, now those could be fads... only time will tell.

 

[GadgetRick]

Fads...

You're correct in saying many things are fads, however, there are very good reasons for using some of the newer equipment. Sure, some of it is just technical mumbo jumbo but quite a bit of it is sound science.

Shaped skis are very easier to ski properly than straight skis. Does this make them better? That's up to the individual skier. I can tell you, since I've learned how to ski them (shaped skis) properly, I'll NEVER go back to a straight ski. They're just not as much fun and you actually have more control with shaped skis (IMHO).

I also mentioned (in another thread) we recently had the state checking the average speed of skiers on a blue trail we have on our mountain. Speeds have signicantly increased in the last 15 years or so. A lot of that has to do with the technological breakthroughs in the sport as far as equipment goes.

I think it is a good thing to check into, "the next best thing," before plunking down your $1,000 for it. I suggest that in any activity.

 

[GadgetRick]

Good question...

That's a good question. I guess the first thing which has to be defined is how do you measure the performance?

Anyway, I'm not sure how much it has increased.

 

[riverc0il]

i think speed is not a good way to measure ski performance. there really isn't a quantitative method of measuring performance, but i would suggest that qualitative findings would show that "control" and "feel" and "fun" would be dramatically different than the were before skis had sidecuts that made them more shaped.

for myself, i have owned 4 different pairs of skis in the past 10 years. every new ski has gotten dramatically better and they were all similar models. control and feel and fun have all dramatically improved with each new ski.

then again, with racing, increased control and feel should increase speeds slightly.

 

[Bumpsis]

rivercOil,

you seem to contradict yourself or can't make up your mind as to speed being a measurable parameter of perfomance.
I say it is, especially for racing. All they measure is that one outcome, speed.
I don't see scores or points issued for form, fun or control and it's very qunatifiable down to 100's of a second.

As to recreational skiing and your own experience, I'd guess that if you have 10 years of skiing in your legs, it's not just the newer skis that make you feel like you ski better. I'm sure your own skills improved too.
I may be inclined to agree with you that in recreational skiing speed is not the ultimate factor to be measured. It's one of many that make up the whole experience. Enventually you will get only as good as you'll ever be and that's the limit, regardless of equipment. I've been skiing for 30 years now and I'm sure I ski as fast on my shaped skis as I used on 200 cm "straight" racing boards when I was younger. Actually, I probably ski slower now because I'm more careful now - aging jock syndrome :-?
As to "feel and fun" on staight skis being dramatically different ? I had a blast skiing back then as I do now. Not much difference.It's still fun. I still mainatin, it's the skier not the skis.

 

[GadgetRick]

Speeds

I know I posted info about speed on a certain trail on my mountain. I can't remember the exact speeds right now (my head is foggy from being sick) but I believe 15 years ago, the average speeds were like 10mph (on a blue). A few weeks ago I believe the average speeds were closer to 30mph. Now, is speed a good indication of performance? I wouldn't say it's a direct indication but certainly an indirect indication. If you're comfortable with your equipment you'll tend to go faster because that's what people seem to want to do. If the equipment is, "better," then you will be more comfortable with it.

As far as shaped versus straight skis goes, although I do certainly agree it's got more to do with the skier than the skis, shaped skis ski WAY differently than straight skis. Can you ski using the same technique as you would on straight skis? Of course but you will not be taking advantage of what the skis are designed for.

 

[riverc0il]

i consider the words "then again" not contradictory, but reflective thought after making an arguement that perhaps i'm not correct. conciliatory perhaps?

it's impossible to compare racing times on modern skis compared to older skis because every ski course is set differently, even year to year. so times on today's skis are largely irrelevent compared to those times of ten years ago.

i actually have over 20 years of skiing as a skier both as a recreational skier and a racer. my quoted 10 years was in regards to my last 4 ski upgrades. while my technique has improved a lot in those 10 years, i know i certainly couldn't do the same things i do know on my p50s (183) if i still skied on straight k2 race skis (204) or even my rossy 9.9s (198) that raced in college on. i won't discredit my own improvement of ability nor that of others. but in the fun and feel catagory, i'm definitely having more of both now.

regardless of shape or straight or what not, when you point those two boards straight downhill, they're gonna carry you about the same speed regardless of sidecut (things like wax etc being equal of course). so if people ski faster now a days, maybe they just aren't turning as much, heh.

 

[Bumpsis]

so if people ski faster now a days, maybe they just aren't turning as much, heh.

yeah, I've noticed that. Maybe it's the joy of carving that keeps people pushing for the g-force as they power through a well carved turn.
I ceratinly have fun doing that when conditions allow ,like an empty groomer either at the end of maybe beginning of the day.

 

[mrw]

Speaking of fads, does anyone remember those boots from the mid to late 70's that had some sort of front riser that almost came up to the bottom of the knee? I think they were a 1 season wonder.

 

[skijay]

We have not even touched the apparel aspect of fads.

I was guilty of owning a neon green spring ski jacket (CB) in the late 80's.

It was hideous by today's standard. I had it in a storage bin and last summer at a tag sale, someone bought it. It was in like new condition and still had the original glow.