Some NH Lawmakers Want Free Passes to Cannon

[riverc0il]

Well, they could ask for the State Park Plates and take care of a few of those perks riv. :lol:

Good call. Don't forget free vanity on those plates. FREETIX all the way.

 

[Puck it]

Puck It, don't forget about us liberal University transplants up here in central NH. Not that that has ANYTHING to do with the discussion at hand. Seriously. Where did that come from?

:beer:

AR... dubious ethical position, IMO. I try not to resort to the slippery slope argument too much but in this case, I think it is appropriate and valid. You are arguing that small inexpensive low cost conflicts of interest are acceptable. Where does it end? What is your upper end? If a free ticket to Cannon is acceptable, in the name of fairness, you would need to extend that to ALL state owned operations that cost money. Flume for sure. Maybe they should get free parking at Hampton Beach. Maybe they should get free access to state beaches that normally charge fees. Maybe, thanks to their service, they should get free motor vehicle registration or free licensing. Etc. Where do you draw the line and how would you justify their not getting discounts and freebies over and above where you draw your arbitrary line? The better option is simple: no arbitrary line, legislatures pay the same rate as everyone else.

Are you sure a liberal University transplant?
Spoken like a true person that thinks for themselves!

 

[AdironRider]

Considering this bill creates and exemption for Cannon exclusively, the slope ends there Riv. Its right in the bill. Anything else is posturing given todays tense political climate. Cut out the sensationalism and its pretty clear.

This is my point. You guys are taking what ifs and assuming thats the road NH is automatically going to take. Considering that is pure hyperbole, you need to take the bill at face value for what it is, which is allowing volunteer lawmakers get a couple free ski days. The conflict of interest is so small its inconsequential.

Now if the bill allowed gifts from any non-profit for example, Id be opposed to it for the reasons you state (think about the money grabs that would create with Northern Pass for one), but it doesnt so its not a big deal.

And for DH, I wouldnt be opposed to free state park access and parking at Hampton Beach as well. I could be swayed on parking I suppose but I think thats only because I suspect about zero state legislators actually frequent Hampton Beach outside of political events to begin with.

 

[Puck it]

Cannon Mountain, which is run though the state Department of Resources and Economic Development (DRED), is one of two state-owned ski areas in New Hampshire. The Legislature privatized operations at Mount Sunapee Ski Area over a decade ago, and profits from Sunapee have been subsidizes capital improvements at Cannon ever since. A recent New Hampshire Watchdog investigation found that taxpayer subsidies of Cannon have totalled more than $9.2 million since 1999. (That would pay for 3 Mittersill Chairs)
In January 2012, Legislative Ethics Committee Chairman Martin L. Gross responded to an inquiry from Representative Edmond Gionet (R-Lincoln) about whether he and his colleagues could accept the Cannon Mountain passes despite the long-standing ban on gifts to lawmakers. Gross responded in an Advisory Opinion from the Committee:

It appears from the facts presented that the value of the lift tickets in question is $25.00 or more, which would classify them as gifts that RSA 15-B:3 would prohibit legislators from receiving unless the tickets were exempted from that classification by applicable provision of law. We find no provision of law that would provide such an exemption.
​

HB 514 would carve out just such an exemption. Officials at Cannon Mountain say that they haven’t tracked how many free passes they’ve given away to lawmakers over the years, and that they don’t write down when a Legislator and guest show up on the slopes.
The Legislative Ethics Committee issued a similar ruling last year, finding that the House of Representatives could not accept 400 free circus tickets for each of its members, even though the value of each individual tickets was well below the $25 threshold.
The House Legislative Administration Committee takes up HB 514, and three other bills dealing with ethics requirements, Thursday morning at 9am in Room 104 of the Legislative Office Building in Concord. HB 410 would allow gifts like the disputed circus tickets and allow outside parties to pay for lawmakers to transportation to and from events. HB 415 would prohibit solicitation of gifts, even under the $25 limit, and bar the acceptance of multiple gifts totalling more than $100 from a single source. HB 548 would rewrite and expand the gift ban for lawmakers, legislative employees, and their family members. This is a very sliperry slope!!!!!

 

[AdironRider]

Puck it, you realize that watchdog article is flawed.

It implies that they gave away 9.2 million in lift tickets. Which would mean they gave away pretty much every single lift ticket they supposedly sold over that timeframe. In reality, that 9 million figure is all subsidies (including the Mittersill chair already).

Do the math, Cannon is effectively a 100-150k skier visit hill. Do you really think they gave away 9.2 million in lift tickets? I think you know the answer to that question. Weve already covered the lease or not lease debate, so dont try stacking the deck here.

The other bills covers everyones real worries it seems, and extends regulation further. So whats the big deal again?

 

[Puck it]

Puck it, you realize that watchdog article is flawed.

It implies that they gave away 9.2 million in lift tickets. Which would mean they gave away pretty much every single lift ticket they supposedly sold over that timeframe. In reality, that 9 million figure is all subsidies (including the Mittersill chair already).

Do the math, Cannon is effectively a 100-150k skier visit hill. Do you really think they gave away 9.2 million in lift tickets? I think you know the answer to that question. Weve already covered the lease or not lease debate, so dont try stacking the deck here.

The other bills covers everyones real worries it seems, and extends regulation further. So whats the big deal again?

The Mittersill chair commit was a tongue in cheek comment. The slippery slope was for real though. Where would the freebies stop? That was my point.

 

[AdironRider]

It says right in the bill(s) where the benefits start and end.

They basically want to have circus tix and transportation, plus Cannon tix, but want to extend regulation further otherwise. I think thats more than a fair compromise.

 

[Puck it]

It says right in the bill(s) where the benefits start and end.

They basically want to have circus tix and transportation, plus Cannon tix, but want to extend regulation further otherwise. I think thats more than a fair compromise.

I read it. There will be others that will try and raise the bar later. That is what I am saying. The bill does not say how many guest tix that they can ge though. Does it?

 

[AdironRider]

Considering the other bill eliminates benefits for friends and family, I think thats your answer.

I think you need to look at the bills and see what they offer. A bill is a bit different than setting precedent in a trial proceeding, and each bill is looked at (or at least should be) at face value for what that bill entails.

 

[Puck it]

Considering the other bill eliminates benefits for friends and family, I think thats your answer.

I think you need to look at the bills and see what they offer. A bill is a bit different than setting precedent in a trial proceeding, and each bill is looked at (or at least should be) at face value for what that bill entails.

I know the definition. IMHO, this will lead to more things being asked for. Just sayin'.

 

[ScottySkis]

I going to move to NH and run for political position. My platform will be legalized a certain plant, and making Cannon better, lol.

 

[AdironRider]

Youd get my vote.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Puck it, you realize that watchdog article is flawed.

It implies that they gave away 9.2 million in lift tickets.

It does nothing of the sort.

Either you misread the article, or you dont know what a taxpayer subsidy is.

 

[bobbutts]

I think NH's move to the left is a function of much of the political right being functionally retarded more than it is suburban transplants. If R's were more conservative and less regressive and petty I think we'd still be a R state. I am at the age and mindset where I am becoming more conservative, but the R's are simply not compelling to me.
I'm sure many will completely disagree, it's just IMO.

 

[Puck it]

I think NH's move to the left is a function of much of the political right being functionally retarded more than it is suburban transplants. If R's were more conservative and less regressive and petty I think we'd still be a R state. I am at the age and mindset where I am becoming more conservative, but the R's are simply not compelling to me.
I'm sure many will completely disagree, it's just IMO.

Just polar opposite the spend happy liberals. I get it!!! I agree there is no middle of the road anymore like during the Reagan years.

 

[Conrad]

Pretty ridiculous. What makes them think they are so special? Next, they should make Cannon free for all NH taxpayers who contribute more than $10,000 in taxes a year to the state.

 

[AdironRider]

I think NH's move to the left is a function of much of the political right being functionally retarded more than it is suburban transplants. If R's were more conservative and less regressive and petty I think we'd still be a R state. I am at the age and mindset where I am becoming more conservative, but the R's are simply not compelling to me.
I'm sure many will completely disagree, it's just IMO.

This is opinion, which is perfectly fine. But the Republican partys downfall has been relatively recent. As someone who grew up in SNH the Mass liberal influx has been happening for at least 20 years, if not longer. My parents were some of them moving up from the North Shore to Strafford and eventually Exeter. My entire social circle growing up was Mass transplants.

NH has voted liberal for the better part of a decade if not longer. Shaheen anyone? Its most certainly a change in demographics opposed to political manuevering by each party.

 

[riverc0il]

Considering this bill creates and exemption for Cannon exclusively, the slope ends there Riv.

Nah, the slippery slope BEGINS there, not ends there. The fact that it is an exception for Cannon only IS the first step onto the slippery slope. Thus the discussion of whether the bill is appropriate or not. Just because it is on a bill doesn't mean it is the right thing to do from an ethical perspective. You did not address my concerns regarding just where do the benefits end. You say that it is just this one bill and just for Cannon. But why not more benefits? Why not include MORE freebies. Maybe future bills will after this gets the ball rolling, no? We can't just look at this bill as just for Cannon. This bill should be evaluated not as "should legislatures get free tickets to Cannon" but rather the bigger question of "What free benefits should legislatures get and what should they not get?" If you focus only on the bill in exclusion to the bigger picture, you are sticking your head under the ground and ignoring the bigger picture.

 

[riverc0il]

NH has voted liberal for the better part of a decade if not longer. Shaheen anyone? Its most certainly a change in demographics opposed to political manuevering by each party.

But NH traditionally voted repub for Pres and legislature. NH is solidly D territory at this point. You can't use Gov as a barometer of a state's political climate. MA has had repub Govs FAR more often than not throughout my lifetime but it is a very liberal state, go figure.

I always say that republicans would win every part of government by a land slide if they just accepted freedoms for women and gays and relaxed their stance on immigration. They talk a big game about inclusion by their policies on social issues (as opposed to economic and fiscal issues) are in the dark ages. They'll continue to hemmerage until they drop social conservativism, make a truly inclusive party, and focus on financial conservativism.

 

[AdironRider]

Dude, NH voted for Kerry 3 elections ago. Pretty sure we voted for Clinton as well but I wasnt of voting age then. Its been a liberal state for a while now.

And if you want to say the slippery slope begins there fine, but youre projecting your fears toward something that doesnt exist currently. The bill exempts Cannon, and there are other bills extending regulation otherwise being heard. Project all you want, but the slippery slope argument is more tea party bs than actual truth.