SUV's and winter driving-

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Actually, according to motor industry's internal market research, SUV drivers tend to be worse drivers (vs. sedan, minivan), or at least, as statistical group, they lack confidence in their own driving skills.

Source?

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Driving back from Mt Snow Saturday night, I was in the lead in a TSX, my brother in law behind, driving a Jeep Cherokee, in 4WD. When we made the turn off 100 (or 9, I forget) to get to the onramp for 91, I made the turn no problem, he spun around 180 degrees. It is possible he was hurrying more to beat the oncoming traffic, it is possible I'm a better driver, it is also possible the light front wheel drive did a better job of it than the heavy 4 wheel. Personally, I think that I'm a slightly better driver (I tend to think further ahead than he does), that he was hurrying a bit, and that he figured he could because he was in the Jeep.

I also saw more SUV's on the side of 91 than I did cars (4 vs 0). I would say that there is quite likely a confluence of events that leads to that- mostly related to the perception of safety that SUVs give drivers. Kind of like helmets. Yeah, I went there. Marc, you want to stir a pot, you've got to go all the way with it.

Another big factor that might be at work here is the tires. Do you have snow tires on your TSX? Does your brother-in-law have worn out all-season radials?

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

kind of like helmets on skiers

I would say that there is quite likely a confluence of events that leads to that- mostly related to the perception of safety that SUVs give drivers. Kind of like helmets. Yeah, I went there. Marc, you want to stir a pot, you've got to go all the way with it.

Comparing the sense of security an SUV gives its driver and a helmet gives a skier just doesn't work. I think Marc's point is that an SUV gives the driver a complete and false sense of security, while a helmet only protects your head and, if anything, probably reminds you to be more cautious.

In other words, when driving in an SUV, you're surrounded by 4 or 5,000 hulking pounds of metal, while when skiing with a helmet, the rest of your body is exposed and can be injured at any moment.

 

[Marc]

CBMP: Marcie no make a point yet,

I really am only interested in others' opinions about this. It can be an emotional subject, when it probably shouldn't.

 

[tjf67]

Actually, according to motor industry's internal market research, SUV drivers tend to be worse drivers (vs. sedan, minivan), or at least, as statistical group, they lack confidence in their own driving skills. That's probably one of the reasons why they would surround themselves with a lot of metal and rubber that sits high off the ground. Source: "High and Mighty" by Keith Bradsher. It's great book about how SUVs came to be such a smashing marketing success.

I think that this book ought to be a required reading by anyone who drives or is thinking about getting an SUV, especially one of the truck based creations. To me, an SUV represents an automotive version of "Emperor's new clothes". It promisses many things, the chief among them being safety, yet, in reality it only delivers false sense of security and through that very function, makes the vehicle unsafe,especially in iffy weather conditions.

This is not say that an SUV can not be driven in a safe manner, but it all depends on the driver. Still, I think that everybody's margin of safety on the road would go up by a bit if these automotive abominations would disappear from the roads.

I think you should read it and give all us SUV drivers a summary.

 

[ALLSKIING]

This is very hard to answer since all SUV are not created equal....Some suck in offroad conditions/Snow some are really good...just like cars some good some bad. My personal experence is that I am safer in my Land Rover then in any car. Stopping is never a problem due to the SUV is set up with hill decent breaking and in a bad situation I just keep off the breaks and let the engine do the work. Its also equiped with a locking center differential. The back end of the SUV has never come out on me but if it does it easy enough to turn the wheel and gas it to bring it out of the spin...With the right driver an SUV is WAY safer!!

 

[Brettski]

Safest thing is to not to put in a situation that's not safe

In any case, I have rented several SUV's for kicks, and one thing that I noticed is that there is no road feel in them..unlike an old 80's era suburban, which was truely a truck


And as for people following too close...slow down even more, they will pass you

I find that good driving habits are followed by others

For example, I had one guy follow me all the way up I95 for like an hour...keeping way back off my tail doing a constant 50, while the other idiots (suv, van, truck, car, didn't matter that day) were buring their vehicles into every known object

 

[Bumpsis]

I think you should read it and give all us SUV drivers a summary.

Yeah, I know, I tend to pontificte on this subject but I just think these machines are so .....unnecessary and create a serious threat to lower riding cars as well as the SUV drivers/passangers.

The potential for death and injury inflicted on occupants of a sedan (in case of colission) is just so much higher, simply because the SUV sits much higher and thus bypasses a lot of the crash safety devices that are part of of a modern sedan. So one's automotive choice really has significant implications as to how toxic one chooses to be.
At the same time various stats show that overall, the SUV is far from being safe to its drivers and occupants.

As far the summary is concered, the New Yorker had an article about the book. Here's a link:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/01/12/040112fa_fact_gladwell
It's only an abstract of the full article - sorry.

Again, I don't mean to preach, ponitificate and such but just hope to stimulate a reflection.

 

[ALLSKIING]

Yeah, I know, I tend to pontificte on this subject but I just think these machines are so .....unnecessary and create a serious threat to lower riding cars as well as the SUV drivers/passangers.

The potential for death and injury inflicted on occupants of a sedan (in case of colission) is just so much higher, simply because the SUV sits much higher and thus bypasses a lot of the crash safety devices that are part of of a modern sedan.

This is one reason I drive an SUV...SUV are going to be around for a long time and I don't want to be in a car if one hits me.

 

[ctenidae]

This is one reason I drive an SUV...SUV are going to be around for a long time and I don't want to be in a car if one hits me.

What are you going to do when GM rolls out the new Abrams M1-A1 four door?

 

[ALLSKIING]

What are you going to do when GM rolls out the new Abrams M1-A1 four door?

Ha!! Well then I will just get myself one of these..

 

[jack97]

This is one reason I drive an SUV...SUV are going to be around for a long time and I don't want to be in a car if one hits me.

What are you going to do when GM rolls out the new Abrams M1-A1 four door?

The abram is to low, its design to have a low profile. I was thinking about the new personnel carriers, they have a higher height profile along with an outer fence to take on grenade launched weapons. Now the trick is to convince the average household that they need that level of safety.....and I'm sure with enuf kick backs, these new models can get exemption on emission and mile/gallon restrictions.

 

[aoneil]

The thinking that SUV's are safer just because they're bigger isn't necessarily true. A lot of SUVs (particularly domestics) get really lousy crash test ratings - it's more about how the car is designed, crumple zones, etc. Of course, if you're driving in a little tin can, you're screwed either way.

I keep thinking about a guy driving a big SUV (I say "big SUV" because my CR-V is a "little SUV" with a 4-cylinder engine I fondly call the gutless wonder) being asked about how he was dealing with the higher gas prices in filling up his boat. He told the anchor "yeah, it's expensive, but my wife drives it and it's safer" and all I could think was if that's his argument for pissing away his money on gas, he should've spent the money on a Volvo or something else with a much better crash rating than the GM product he was filling up.

Full disclosure: I worked for GM one summer in college (line worker) and did some time as a contract programmer (engineer) at another GM plant. So I have a unique perspective on how screwed up their product and manufacturing process can be.

 

[aoneil]

The abram is to low, its design to have a low profile. I was thinking about the new personnel carriers, they have a higher height profile along with an outer fence to take on grenade launched weapons. Now the trick is to convince the average household that they need that level of safety.....and I'm sure with enuf kick backs, these new models can get exemption on emission and mile/gallon restrictions.

Then they'll want "rebate" checks to afford the gas for them. :flame:

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

A lot of SUVs (particularly domestics) get really lousy crash test ratings

Sources? (In particular, the domestic vs. import comparison.)

Full disclosure: I worked for GM one summer in college (line worker) and did some time as a contract programmer (engineer) at another GM plant. So I have a unique perspective on how screwed up their product and manufacturing process can be.

Hmmm....I'm sure your summer internship in college really provided you with enough valuable insight to make such sweeping generalizations.

:flag:

 

[bvibert]

I think Marc is right.

 

[jack97]

I think Marc is right.

What was his point?

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

I think Marc is right.

ITA

 

[billski]

Without data to corroborate, I hypothesize that while there are equally incompetent drivers behind all types of vehicles, SUVs, especially older ones without stability control are much easier to get into trouble than an automobile. thoughts?

 

[billski]

Sources?

here's your data: http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/ictl_pdf/ictl_0906.pdf
Draw your own conclusions!

http://www.iihs.org/
these are the people who have to pay for all the stupid mistakes people make
There is enough data to keep you occupied for the remainder of sliding season!

"
Rollovers are much more common for SUVs and pickups than for cars, and more common for SUVs than for pickups. This has been true in the past and continues to be so. In 2005, 60 percent of SUV occupants killed in crashes were in vehicles that rolled over. In comparison, 46 percent of deaths in pickups and 24 percent of deaths in cars were in rollovers.
Pickups and SUVs tend to be involved in rollovers more frequently than cars largely due to the physical differences of these vehicles. Light trucks are taller than cars and have greater ground clearance, causing their mass to be distributed higher off the road relative to the width of the vehicle. Additional passengers and cargo can increase the center of gravity even more. Other things being equal, a vehicle with a higher center of gravity is more prone to rollover than a lower riding vehicle.
Driver behavior may contribute to the increased rollover involvement rate of SUVs and pickups. Drivers of these vehicles may be more aggressive in hazardous weather, increasing their chances of sliding off the road and rolling over. Pickups and SUVs also are more likely than cars to be driven on rural roads, where rollovers occur more frequently.3 Lower belt use among pickup occupants means they are more likely to be seriously or fatally injured when rollovers occur."