Talking Pennsylvania

[Old Geezer]

Jeez, how many message boards do you go around trashing my hill?

Trashing your hill, no. Offering up my opinion, yes.

I gather you expect if someone's opinion doesn't mesh with your opinion then the other person should keep quiet, move out of the way and let you speak. That's very naive.

I haven't skied there in several years. But extended family and people I do business with have, and still do. They total six different adult skiers, and a few kids. They have a consensus opinion, which I'll value much more than yours in this.

I don't know who this Dennis guy is, and I don't want to know. An established organization with a track record of already owning and managing three ski "resorts" in the state would clearly have done better then the group that bought the place. If you live there, ask around to to see how eager vendors (construction, electrical, etc.) and other suppliers are to do business with the owners. I already know, I talk to the same small business owners. For example, there's this newspaper article about unpaid bills, and a few suppliers filing liens to get their funds: http://www.scrantontimes.com/articles/2008/06/26/top_local_stories/19805189.txt

 

[campgottagopee]

Because WF locals ripped off PARA kids gear during early season point chasing races three straight years. I know because they finally caught them selling the gear on eBay. The kids (er, 20-something year old guys) had more than 100 sales of race skis under a half dozen eBay usernames. Wonder why it didn't make the local paper up there?

And, yes, the skis were all locked...cables were cut. Also taken and sold were backpacks with shin guards and a small fortune in HF waxes and overlays. To be clear, my kid's gear was never stolen---I just witnessed devastated kids from our team and state. And WF's response each time was "We're really busy and can't be responsible in any way and don't want to bother cooperating with a police investigation," by refusing to provide any information about times and dates of other thefts. F*ckers.

And just FYI, we hosted a USSA J1/2 race last season at Sno and nobody's gear was stolen. We don't do that sh*t....

My point about 7k sh*tty skiers at WF is this: I've found there are great skiers at huge resorts and there are great skiers at tiny hills. My own opinion is that if you turn your nose up and pass up 50 or 100 days of skiing your local hill to spend 12 at Beaver Creek, I probably have nothing in common with you. Having taught at Hunter and Mount Snow---twin Meccas of the angry unwashed during those years---just might have jaded me toward the pushy 'once a monthers'....but it gave me a great appreciation for the people at the heart of the sport; the race coaches, instructors who actually care about teaching, and the oddballs like GSS who would pass up a sure thing with a top shelf breezy if it meant missing Saturday morning first chair.

Skiing, IMO, isn't so much about where you are but what you've collected along the way. Today, I skied with my daughter's coach's father---an older guy from Germany who grew up on wooden skis and told me how Tuckerman's reminded him of skiing as a kid---his town held an annual race after Easter (too much snow before then). They had to hike the fields for an hour, then climb three hours up the snowfields. He remembered trying to find a short grownup to follow because his stride was so short. The story went on for three chair lifts...how the moguls built as 400 people from town on seven foot skis slid and tumbled down the mountain.

And if it makes me an internet tough guy by believing anyone who sits next to you and lights up a cigarette is a brain dead assh*le, then so be it. Smoke away. Flick your used butts wherever you want...someone will surely clean up after you. And, yes, if they cloud my space with cancer-riddled smoke, they risk being tossed off the lift, perhaps directly onto Greg. FOUR!

So pile on me for not answering HPD? The first response to his post was from the owner giving him crap for 'ghetto speak', followed directly by a "For PA, it's not a bad mountain". Then came more "ghetto speak" comments and then a reference to C.L.I.T.S. By page 4, Madskier6 decided "ski9 started the hijack".

Yeah, okay, whatever.

What an ass!!!!! Shit gets stolen EVERYWHERE all the time---just cause kids from PA get ripped off it's a big deal, whaaaaaaaa---cry somewhere else. I've skied in PA, NY, VT, NH and the only place I've ever had skis stolen was in VT. Oh, and peeps smokin on the lifts---they have every right to.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

"We get our fair share of people from Pennsylvania vacationing in Whiteface/Lake Placid and when I happen to be riding the gondi and talking to them I always ax which one is the best."

Wasn't this your post? Sorry, I thought WF was Whiteface. You're a little confusing HPD...

Fair enough, but I wasn’t comparing WF to PA areas. I wasn’t singing it’s praises either, I was just using it as a point of reference so people would know where I got my information from.

I never met for this thread to be about bashing PA areas or the people who enjoy skiing there. You’re the one who led it to the negative slant it’s taken.

 

[dmc]

Rode up a chair with 3 Blue Mountain snowboarders yesterday at Hunter... Brought back memories of skiing Blue...

it was their first time to Hunter... All they could say is it it was great and doesn't suck like everyone says it does down at Blue...

 

[dmc]

And the owner quickly turns it into a personal attack. Real special.

ummmmm.... yeah.....

 

[Greg]

And the owner quickly turns it into a personal attack. Real special.

Aren't you the same guy that got all bent out of shape when the AZ crew had the nerve to question the Denton 66 degree slope thing?

http://www.paskiandride.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=2027&view=findpost&p=33494

I see plenty of personal attacks from you in that thread, kettle. Doesn't seem like you've evolved much since then aside from the fact that you've gotten over yourself and post here now. In addition to your Internet tough guy (pushing people off the lift if they light a butt) and know-it-all (countless examples of that) traits, you also seem to be a little hypersensitive whenever anyone questions PA skiing. A bit of a complex about it really. You sure have quite the pleasant online persona, don't you? :lol: Are you like this in real life?

 

[tjf67]

Because WF locals ripped off PARA kids gear during early season point chasing races three straight years. I know because they finally caught them selling the gear on eBay. The kids (er, 20-something year old guys) had more than 100 sales of race skis under a half dozen eBay usernames. Wonder why it didn't make the local paper up there?

And, yes, the skis were all locked...cables were cut. Also taken and sold were backpacks with shin guards and a small fortune in HF waxes and overlays. To be clear, my kid's gear was never stolen---I just witnessed devastated kids from our team and state. And WF's response each time was "We're really busy and can't be responsible in any way and don't want to bother cooperating with a police investigation," by refusing to provide any information about times and dates of other thefts. F*ckers.

And just FYI, we hosted a USSA J1/2 race last season at Sno and nobody's gear was stolen. We don't do that sh*t....

My point about 7k sh*tty skiers at WF is this: I've found there are great skiers at huge resorts and there are great skiers at tiny hills. My own opinion is that if you turn your nose up and pass up 50 or 100 days of skiing your local hill to spend 12 at Beaver Creek, I probably have nothing in common with you. Having taught at Hunter and Mount Snow---twin Meccas of the angry unwashed during those years---just might have jaded me toward the pushy 'once a monthers'....but it gave me a great appreciation for the people at the heart of the sport; the race coaches, instructors who actually care about teaching, and the oddballs like GSS who would pass up a sure thing with a top shelf breezy if it meant missing Saturday morning first chair.

Skiing, IMO, isn't so much about where you are but what you've collected along the way. Today, I skied with my daughter's coach's father---an older guy from Germany who grew up on wooden skis and told me how Tuckerman's reminded him of skiing as a kid---his town held an annual race after Easter (too much snow before then). They had to hike the fields for an hour, then climb three hours up the snowfields. He remembered trying to find a short grownup to follow because his stride was so short. The story went on for three chair lifts...how the moguls built as 400 people from town on seven foot skis slid and tumbled down the mountain.

And if it makes me an internet tough guy by believing anyone who sits next to you and lights up a cigarette is a brain dead assh*le, then so be it. Smoke away. Flick your used butts wherever you want...someone will surely clean up after you. And, yes, if they cloud my space with cancer-riddled smoke, they risk being tossed off the lift, perhaps directly onto Greg. FOUR!

So pile on me for not answering HPD? The first response to his post was from the owner giving him crap for 'ghetto speak', followed directly by a "For PA, it's not a bad mountain". Then came more "ghetto speak" comments and then a reference to C.L.I.T.S. By page 4, Madskier6 decided "ski9 started the hijack".

Yeah, okay, whatever.

Anger management is something you should look into before you hurt someone. You must be a joy to be around

 

[2knees]

I've found there are great skiers at huge resorts and there are great skiers at tiny hills. My own opinion is that if you turn your nose up and pass up 50 or 100 days of skiing your local hill to spend 12 at Beaver Creek, I probably have nothing in common with you.

In a vacuum, ignoring all the rest of this thread, i totally agree with this piece.

 

[GolfingOwl]

PA skiing is very much separated by regions. Pocono skiers rarely ski in western PA, or even the southern tier. Someone from Roundtop rarely comes up to Sno. Someone from Seven Springs doesn't travel to Blue. If you ask a Denton skier the best place in PA, he'll probably say Denton. If a PA skier travels, he/she generally heads out of state to the north, or the southern skiers head further south. Yes, there's a higher peak south of PA than KMart. Penn Staters who come from the Poconos will ski Tussey, but sure don't go back after graduation.

So, if you ask the typical Lake Placid visitor the best place in PA, you're mostly getting a very parochial view.

That's why Elk is the magical place. It's tucked up in the NE corner of the state and is a pain in the ass to get to. It's only 20 miles from me as the crow flies, but seems like twice as far. Because they've marketed well, they gained the rep as the best snowmaking and grooming in the state. Ski Mag annually rates them as the Best Snow. It's also unique because it's set above the Poconos, in it's own range called the Endless Mountains. Same exact geological plate, etc, but it sounds better.

The Poconos have Shecky Green...the Endless Mountains have sunsets.

But Elk has lagged in their snowmaking upgrades and blow about 25% the capacity of Sno and about 35% that of CB or Blue.

What's the number one ingredient to snow quality? Skier traffic. Elk just doesn't get scraped off as quickly as Blue or CB. That's their magic. Much less manmade snow and a much smaller grooming fleet. But those same NYC hoards that crowd the slopes and scrape them down to a shiny blue, continue to vote it as the best quality snow.

Elk is Hell on weekend. It is great on weekdays, if the weather has been cold enough for their old guns.

Trackbiker summed up PA skiing as well as anyone. But I'd bet that the vast majority of those gondi people you talk to don't have much of an idea for true comparison.

Lastly, PA skiing is different for everyone. I found a niche in a place that has a 550ft vert headwall (the hill is 1000' vert) that is steeper than most diamonds in VT. There's never anyone else on it and it's open seven days a week until 10pm. There are a dozen top of the line PoleCats lining it and run almost too often. I can park about 20 yards from the top of the headwall and grab a few runs down it after work every night.

I haven't skied Sno/Montage since I was a kid so I can't comment - though I will try to get up there and give it a shot hopefully this year.

I agree with your general premise about the regionalized nature of PA skiing. However, I can't agree with some of your comments regarding Elk. To say that Elk conditions versus Camelback or Blue are solely because of skier numbers is a very simplistic view. Elk is colder and gets more natural snow so their snow is better to begin with. Blue's snow is the worst because it gets the least least natural (and sometimes rain when Elk gets snow) and they typically are blowing snow in warmer temps than other mountains. Sure if Elk was as packed as Blue or Camelback their snow wouldn't be as good as it's current rep. But it would still probably be better than those southern moutains because the product is better to begin with.

I do agree with your statement regarding their poor snowmaking (as stated in my post above). Their owner clearly runs the mountain with as little cap ex as possible (which is why if he ever decides to sell, there will be a great opportunity for someone with some capital to put into the mountain). But I'm not sure where you get that Elk has only 25% of the capicity of Sno (or 35% of Camelback, which implies Sno has more capicity than Camelback - maybe you meant Elk has 25% less capacity than Sno). I see that Sno presently has a little over half of their trails open. Clearly, their snomaking isn't up to par with Camelback or Blue (or JF/BB). The fact that both Sno and Elk are not 100% open when nearly every other "Pocono" mountain is, shows they both are way behind the others in that area.

 

[ski9]

What an ass!!!!! Shit gets stolen EVERYWHERE all the time---just cause kids from PA get ripped off it's a big deal, whaaaaaaaa---cry somewhere else. I've skied in PA, NY, VT, NH and the only place I've ever had skis stolen was in VT. Oh, and peeps smokin on the lifts---they have every right to.

More personal attacks. Yes, gear gets stolen everywhere, but does management impede police investigations everywhere? Calling me an ass because WF wouldn't help the cops and let the guys get away for it for three seasons? Piss off to you.

 

[ski9]

I haven't skied Sno/Montage since I was a kid so I can't comment - though I will try to get up there and give it a shot hopefully this year.

I agree with your general premise about the regionalized nature of PA skiing. However, I can't agree with some of your comments regarding Elk. To say that Elk conditions versus Camelback or Blue are solely because of skier numbers is a very simplistic view. Elk is colder and gets more natural snow so their snow is better to begin with. Blue's snow is the worst because it gets the least least natural (and sometimes rain when Elk gets snow) and they typically are blowing snow in warmer temps than other mountains. Sure if Elk was as packed as Blue or Camelback their snow wouldn't be as good as it's current rep. But it would still probably be better than those southern moutains because the product is better to begin with.

I do agree with your statement regarding their poor snowmaking (as stated in my post above). Their owner clearly runs the mountain with as little cap ex as possible (which is why if he ever decides to sell, there will be a great opportunity for someone with some capital to put into the mountain). But I'm not sure where you get that Elk has only 25% of the capicity of Sno (or 35% of Camelback, which implies Sno has more capicity than Camelback - maybe you meant Elk has 25% less capacity than Sno). I see that Sno presently has a little over half of their trails open. Clearly, their snomaking isn't up to par with Camelback or Blue (or JF/BB). The fact that both Sno and Elk are not 100% open when nearly every other "Pocono" mountain is, shows they both are way behind the others in that area.

Yes, skier traffic is the MOST important factor in snow quality. Far and away. No comparison. Consider this: what's a narrow, 1000ft long headwall like for the first person after a 12 inch snowfall in the east? What's it like after 500 people have chopped it up?

But probably more relevant: take the best cold manmade snow and groom it into perfect cord. Then have 2000 people ski the slope. Compare that to some old tripod mounted guns spewing marginal snow, then groom it with 30 year old cats. But only five skiers ski the run. EVERY time, the one with less traffic will hold up better. The "margin for error", so to speak, is about two inches deep on a typical PA ski slope.

Sno opened all it's main diamonds early. The average weekday crowd has been about 150 people. This past Sat/Sun, there were maybe a 100 cars in the lot until noon. At the holiday peak of 1pm on Saturday, there were five empty chairs between skiers on the North Face lift. Business has been so slow, it's hard to justify opening the long, wide greens on skier's right. We were skiing untouched cord on the diamonds until 11am both Sat and Sun. Sno is still trying to recover from what the county did to the place over the years. They have the best snow in PA and there are people like Old Geezer who haven't been there and post all over the place about how much it sucks.

 

[ski9]

Trashing your hill, no. Offering up my opinion, yes.

I gather you expect if someone's opinion doesn't mesh with your opinion then the other person should keep quiet, move out of the way and let you speak. That's very naive.

I haven't skied there in several years. But extended family and people I do business with have, and still do. They total six different adult skiers, and a few kids. They have a consensus opinion, which I'll value much more than yours in this.

I don't know who this Dennis guy is, and I don't want to know. An established organization with a track record of already owning and managing three ski "resorts" in the state would clearly have done better then the group that bought the place. If you live there, ask around to to see how eager vendors (construction, electrical, etc.) and other suppliers are to do business with the owners. I already know, I talk to the same small business owners. For example, there's this newspaper article about unpaid bills, and a few suppliers filing liens to get their funds: http://www.scrantontimes.com/articles/2008/06/26/top_local_stories/19805189.txt

You're full of crap and a troll. Elk has defaulted on bills and been sued by contractors dozens of times over the years. Where are all your concerned posts about that? The county didn't pay the water bill for years and failed to turn over the info at closing, so Sno was sued for water use from years before they took ownership. If you buy any property from a corrupt county government, I'd say you're asking for headaches. And, yes, the admin before the Corderro years was corrupt as Hell.

You also give the impression skiing Sno is like skiing in Brooklyn. You can see some of the valley buildings and lights from the top of the green circles, but what do you experience when you ski the real slopes? The North Face is an amazing place that looks over a gorge filled with a narrow reservoir. You are surrounded by evergreens and it's a totally natural experience. What pissed you off and put you on the Sno attack? Someone mention all the smell of cow shit as you drive into Elk?

Is your two year campaign to mudsling ever going to stop? What's your goal? To help close a ski area?

 

[dmc]

You also give the impression skiing Sno is like skiing in Brooklyn.

Probably learned that from your relentless Hunter blasting...

I hear Sno is more like west Philly....

This is an enjoyable thread.. Keep it going...

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I love a good flame war at lunch time..

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

More personal attacks. Yes, gear gets stolen everywhere, but does management impede police investigations everywhere? Calling me an ass because WF wouldn't help the cops and let the guys get away for it for three seasons? Piss off to you.

I have a hard time believing that WF, or any other ski area for that matter, would not want to cooperate with police and intentionally let a gang of thieves run wild for 3 years. I’m there all the time and this is the first I’ve heard of it. I did; however, here the other day that a thief was caught trying to sell some skis on the internet that had been stolen from WF.

I’d like to look into it more and find out for myself. Ski9 if you can supply me with dates and items you know of that would be a start. If you don’t want to post them in the open forum you can PM me. If you don’t want to do that I’ll see what I can find out for myself.

I know all the upper management guys at WF. They are all good and decent people who honestly want everyone’s experience at WF to be the best it can be. There has to be another side to this story IMO.

 

[campgottagopee]

More personal attacks. Yes, gear gets stolen everywhere, but does management impede police investigations everywhere? Calling me an ass because WF wouldn't help the cops and let the guys get away for it for three seasons? Piss off to you.

WF had nothing to do with ME calling YOU an ASS---think about it

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

WF had nothing to do with ME calling YOU an ASS---think about it

personal attacks will not be tolerated..Grow Up!!!

 

[dmc]

personal attacks will not be tolerated..Grow Up!!!

Wow...Stickin up for you own... Shoobies UNITE!!!!!

i say go for the throat....

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Wow...Stickin up for you own... Shoobies UNITE!!!!!

i say go for the throat....

I ain't no shoobie..anyway we need a thread on Ohio or New York now..

 

[dmc]

I ain't no shoobie..anyway we need a thread on Ohio or New York now..

Your not from PA? sorry...