The NEW Magic Mountain

[jimmywilson69]

By the way I love all of this snowmaking talk. Thanks!

 

[Newpylong]

Interesting. I'd have said push towards loading one compressor with the 10' sleds, about 10 more than they have - if they're running in super cold weather some will be idle for lack of water, but if it's Valve 1 or Valve 2 weather you can start one compressor and cover a whole lot of Green Lift terrain and use half (Valve 1) or nearly all (Valve 2) of your water. Fixed towers are going to cover one spot - maybe one trail - and be better at it, but ~22 sleds cover Wand, Carpet, Vertigo, Lower Wizard, Carumba, backup on the 300 line and the Carpet/Handle Tow, and more.

Of course once you have those then start putting Impulse towers up as you're able - maybe some SV14 sticks on the bunny hill - but 10 sleds IMO move far more water over a season than 10 more fixed towers would. Swapping one air hog for 4 low E towers on LMC + Wand is huge if there's limited cold before Christmas. Frankly I'm only worried about snowmaking above ~17 degrees anyway since the existing towers plus Rats on Valve 3 would flow more water than the pumps can deliver.

Unless you were thinking to put those towers on Black Line below Witch, that could make a big difference once they get there.

Lots of ways to skin the cat. The right way is to take a "temperature bin", that's a wet bulb analysis from a local station to you give the number of typical snowmaking hours at any given wet bulb range.

Then you lay out your equipment you have (or want to have) and what it is capable of in terms of max and typical conversion rates, air/water consumption, typical coverage, etc.

Thirdly you join the two with your desired snowmaking footprint and how much each trail needs in terms of acre feet, obviously highly dependent on usage/width, etc.

This will tell you if you're going to be able to get it covered in a "typical" season or if you need more equipment. It also will tell you how many "moves" are needed of the equipment, highly helpful in deciding to purchase more fixed or portable.

 

[slatham]

"I'd have said push towards loading one compressor with the 10' sleds, about 10 more than they have"

Curious what you mean by 10' sleds? They have at least 11 of the HKD tower sleds, and 5 or so HKD ground sleds. Plus the Rats, fixed towers and fans.

As a weather geek this snowmaking chatter is very interesting. I'd love to know more about the math behind determining how much snow can be put down at x wet bulb temp. Although the challenge is the WB is never static over a snowmaking window.

 

[Newpylong]

Those are the ones he was referring to - 10' Impulse sleds. They are the only sleds HKD makes outside of the "Viper" sleds, which are essentially the same (SV12 Impulse) head mounted directly to a sled vs that 10' boom. I didn't think Magic had any Viper sleds but you'd know more than me.

I'll try to find some of the calculations we did if you're interested. Maybe another thread is more appropriate I don't know. Don't want to hijack anymore than we have if folks don't want that.

 

[ThatGuy]

I don’t think the 3 people active in this thread mind at all. I find the snowmaking talk very interesting.

 

[drjeff]

It's a few years old, and based on the West Lake System at Mount Snow, but the interview with Brendan Ryan, who has since moved on and is now the snow surface projects manager for Boyne, has a good deal of info about production efficiences and outputs at different temps

Mount Snow-making

Mount Snow has become the most powerful snowmaker on the East Coast.

freeskier.com

 

[Newpylong]

Below are some snippets pulled from two different reports (2006 and 2018) the latter of which I was involved in. So the numbers and equipment in 10 years have changed, but it gives you an idea of some of the computations. We only pumped about 15 million gallons a year and ran about 450 hours on average.

The map below I built. Since this map was made we upgraded the majority of that main upline (the thick line in the middle) from 6" to 8" and added Fan Gun plugs to the Canyon/Scrimshaw wide section and a few other select places. I don't think they've done much in the way to snowmaking since I left as all their money has gone towards the bottomless pit (the chair). Unfortunately they don't really have anyone there who knows how to make snow or the physics behind it anyway.

 

[slatham]

Ok thats a lot to digest, but digest I will. Thanks for posting.

 

[Newpylong]

Anytime! The engineers that do this are very passionate and I was a sponge in learning. They have it down to a science, it's quite a niche. I was extremely lucky to be able to work with them and be the quarterback/co-designer on our larger capital projects. I had to sell them to the public too (we had to raise the money as a non-profit).

A byproduct is once you really understand it, some of the excuses/reasons you hear from ski areas about snowmaking either really make sense, or you can see right through them.

 

[skithetrees]

Early bird prices passes are out. Is the early bird price $649 this year? I thought that was the regular season price last year.

 

[slatham]

Yes $649 early bird. I don’t recall the regular price last year, but the early price this year is an increase from last year. Seems to be an industry trend this year (see Storm Skiing Journal). With the improvements made and being made - not to mention the obvious need for more snowmaking in SoVT - seems reasonable to me.

Plus with 2 poor snow seasons in a row, 22/23 is the year to ski !

 

[drjeff]

Heck, as I am sure we all can agree, the prices of most everything over the last year or so has gone up. And that does factor into the price determination at some point to some level

 

[IceEidolon]

It looks like you're using 270k gallons per acre-foot, which is higher than I usually see quoted (180k-200k). I'm assuming that's empirical?

 

[skithetrees]

Heck, as I am sure we all can agree, the prices of most everything over the last year or so has gone up. And that does factor into the price determination at some point to some level

Not complaining, just a bit surprised as I thought that was the regular price last year.

 

[ne_skier]

Plus with 2 poor snow seasons in a row, 22/23 is the year to ski !

2020-21 was a poor snow year? I don’t recall how much they actually got, but I’ve never seen Black Magic and Magician open for as long as they were that year. I must really be in for something next time around!

 

[Newpylong]

It looks like you're using 270k gallons per acre-foot, which is higher than I usually see quoted (180k-200k). I'm assuming that's empirical?

I think you're missing the Recoveries column. So it's not a straight 540,000 gallons / 2 = 270,000 because some volume is committed to 1.5-2 recoveries. If we are assuming 180,000 for an acre/ft and we use 360,000 for 2 acre/ft that leaves 180,000 for those recovery numbers.

 

[ThatGuy]

2020-21 was a poor snow year? I don’t recall how much they actually got, but I’ve never seen Black Magic and Magician open for as long as they were that year. I must really be in for something next time around!

20-21 was low snowfall but good sustained temps with the snow we got so it worked out well.

 

[Hastur]

20-21 had a good 5 week stretch. Cold and No thaws MLK-feb break. Crappy start and finish tho

Low snowfall year overall.

 

[thetrailboss]

Well played Magic, well played.

 

[IceEidolon]

From various Alpine Updates they've been making progress on the new supply pipeline and the pond rehab. In terms of amenities the lodge deck's gone and getting rebuilt and expanded. At least some of the new build lift parts are up. I'm not aware of any major snowmaking changes above the pumphouse but just having more water available will be a big help - being able to run at 100% through a much longer cold snap should make a huge difference if Nature doesn't come through first.
EDIT: NYDB, exactly the kind of extended low-snow cold snap we saw last year, this pond renovation should be huge when that happens again. One day running wide open can mean nearly five acres covered 1' deep, and doubling the pond adds another ~16 acres without any refilling.