The NEW Magic Mountain

[IceEidolon]

T

Ugh.

What sort of engineering error causes the rope to fall off? Mis-alignment of towers?

Is the combo assemblies the answer to the rope falling off?

Jeez...not sure I want to ride a lift that has that kind of probelm!

Yikes.

That was the engineering fuckup (not on Pfister) that's caused most of the delays. They had the haul rope spliced to the new length, they had all the towers up, they had the lift testing (which is meant to catch exactly this kind of issue) and found a significant problem. That problem isn't really Magic's fault and it's definitely not Pfister's, it's on the third party engineer.

Now, the process of getting the remanufactured/redesigned equipment installed? That's more ambiguous. By my read, though, if the alignment had been correct on initial assembly the lift would either have been ready, or failed for a new haul rope, sometime two seasons ago and would have been running with a new haul rope last season. I don't know how you're supposed to mitigate your engineer messing up like that aside from not sharing projected completion dates at all.

 

[Newpylong]

It's hard to say without having the whole story, but a lift profile has different load points depending on tower location. So obviously the assemblies at every tower have to be appropriate for the load calcs at that location. Some locations are under extreme tension (usually breakover or under) while some tend to slack. As to how this actually came to be, until someone from Magic tells the full story, we're just throwing darts, but it's obvious there was a design issue and when the lift began to be loaded the downhill side did not play nice.

 

[skimagic]

Montana Snowbowl's Snowpark lift, a used double, was announced as opening in 2017. and then 2018. Given multiple issues with the install , it didn't open until 2020, and was shut down for a brief period shortly thereafter to deal with new issues. so no, install issues with old lifts is not unprecedented.

Come up with all the excuses you want, but this wasn’t the first used lift installation in the world, and it won’t be the last. All of them have hurdles to overcome, yet only Magic has taken this long. Implying Magic is in some unique scenario never before seen is pure hogwash.

 

[drjeff]

Montana Snowbowl's Snowpark lift, a used double, was announced as opening in 2017. and then 2018. Given multiple issues with the install , it didn't open until 2020, and was shut down for a brief period shortly thereafter to deal with new issues. so no, install issues with old lifts is not unprecedented.

Unprecendented - No

More of the anomaly than the typical experience - yes

Ultimately the planing ahead of time is often what has the greatest affect on the outcome and the timeline to go from start to finish

 

[AdironRider]

This Magic install almost doubling the Montana Snowbowl situation at this point, but yeah sure, totally equal.

The excuses never end for this mountain. Any other place would be roasted. Hell, the last owner of Magic was given nowhere near the current level of slack current ownership gets.

 

[Hastur]

Yes 1000%. That's my biggest issue in this whole saga. Magic would be at no fault if they hadn't advertised the completion of the lift the last 4 seasons. But the completion of Black and having a 2nd summit lift for reliability has been falsely advertised for years now as a selling point.

Its Still happening.
https://www.reformer.com/business/w...cle_b7d55da6-43fa-11ed-af93-7b1203784c6e.html

https://www.bostonherald.com/2022/11/23/ski-wednesday-vermont-options-entice/

These are recent articles. It’s a bad look.

 

[machski]

This Magic install almost doubling the Montana Snowbowl situation at this point, but yeah sure, totally equal.

The excuses never end for this mountain. Any other place would be roasted. Hell, the last owner of Magic was given nowhere near the current level of slack current ownership gets.

Could that possibly be because while they've had major hitches, the improvements they have gotten through have increased the experience for their guests? I have seen large investments in snowmaking, trail and glade work, etc. The product you ski on ses to improve year over year. I would expect similar this season. I'm sure management wishes they had the capital to go complete new now on Black. But they likely didn't have access to that amount at the front. It is possible the total install $ will total or exceed a new lift in the end though.

 

[IceEidolon]

Given the sweetheart deal they got on Black and recent public statements, I think they're still comfortably under "new equivalent lift" price tags.

I agree that if they hadn't made substantial upgrades to the guest experience there wouldn't be nearly the amount of goodwill. Getting Green Lift, Lower Magic Carpet, Vertigo, Sorcerer, etc. online, plus seeing more snowmaking on every trail that's traditionally had snowmaking? Better food and beverage options? All the other little things that have gone right or have gotten done - it all ads up. They're definitely drawing down that store of goodwill with the Black Lift delays, but we'll see how it all shakes out with a potential haul rope replacement during the season (or one more season offline).

 

[ThatGuy]

Whats the life expectancy of a used lift vs a new install? Was that lift used heavily at Stratton?

 

[drjeff]

Whats the life expectancy of a used lift vs a new install? Was that lift used heavily at Stratton?

I heard Bill Cairns (? sp), the GM of Bromley, on a recent storm skiing podcast, when talking about the life expectancy of many of Bromley's old Hall doubles, mention that with some upgrades in some of the operational and communication systems that 50+ years for a lift with regular maintenace is fairly reasonable, and that often what may require an old lift to be replaced if it's capacity is reasonable is a lack of ability over time to find any needed replacement parts.

The old Snowbowl Quad that Magic got from Stratton I am guessing had low hours on it, as it basically ran only weekends and holidays and isolate times when winds may have affected summit access via other lifts. And the Poma Alpha style lift that it is, is a long standing workhorse in the fixed grip side of the industry that is still available for purchase from Leitner-Poma today with basically minor changes to the alpha's they were selling for the last multiple decades as I understand it And much easier to find parts for once they get it up and running than for the Red

 

[ss20]

I heard Bill Cairns (? sp), the GM of Bromley, on a recent storm skiing podcast, when talking about the life expectancy of many of Bromley's old Hall doubles, mention that with some upgrades in some of the operational and communication systems that 50+ years for a lift with regular maintenace is fairly reasonable, and that often what may require an old lift to be replaced if it's capacity is reasonable is a lack of ability over time to find any needed replacement parts.

The old Snowbowl Quad that Magic got from Stratton I am guessing had low hours on it, as it basically ran only weekends and holidays and isolate times when winds may have affected summit access via other lifts. And the Poma Alpha style lift that it is, is a long standing workhorse in the fixed grip side of the industry that is still available for purchase from Leitner-Poma today with basically minor changes to the alpha's they were selling for the last multiple decades as I understand it And much easier to find parts for once they get it up and running than for the Red

It is worth noting too, that usually with really old lifts its the concrete tower footings which are the "weakest link" and when those go, the lift goes. Given these will be new footings, 50 years is not unreasonable.

There are numerous lifts from the 1960s still running. Killington's poma on Snowdon is from the late 50s and that was relocated to Ramshead for the race venue there. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't think it still had life in it. There is a double chair from 1958 that is SBNO at White Pass, WA. Apparently it did run up until the late 2010s. In fact the entire PNW is littered with ancient lifts that are still running, some of the oldest in the country.

 

[slatham]

The new pond is just about full. Most water at hand in decades.

So there’s that……

 

[drjeff]

The new pond is just about full. Most water at hand in decades.

So there’s that……

Now we just need to get mother nature to get into an extended cold run without intermittent warm up + liquid events so they can atleast get the green open and then hopefully get the work on the red's chairs completed and get it carrying folks up the hill

 

[slatham]

Now we just need to get mother nature to get into an extended cold run without intermittent warm up + liquid events so they can atleast get the green open and then hopefully get the work on the red's chairs completed and get it carrying folks up the hill

Highly confident they’re going directly for summit access for opening day. Temps continue to step down and get more favorable over the next week - which will help - though still some bad storms to come through. Then maybe a complete pattern change to cold, but still not a done deal…..

 

[ne_skier]

It is worth noting too, that usually with really old lifts its the concrete tower footings which are the "weakest link" and when those go, the lift goes.

Saddleback's old Rangeley Double had this issue, as annoying as its slowness and low capacity was (I'm speaking from what I've heard, I don't ski there), it was deteriorating tower footings that made the lift inoperable and caused Saddleback's closure. MRG's single was in a similar situation, but due to the love that lift had from MRG's skiers the mountain opted for a refurbishment instead. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a factor in Black's replacement as well, among hundreds of other factors of course. From pictures I've seen online the footings did look pretty nasty toward the end of its life, and since Black's towers were sunk into the concrete as opposed to bolted on such as Red's they wouldn't really be able to replace them even if they wanted to. I suspect this will be an issue with Riblet lifts in the future, as they did the same thing in the 1960s.

Outside of footings, which I won't touch on since I'm not a concrete expert, I think Magic's lift system will be pretty solid once Black is installed, outside of occasional maintenance and problem-solving, of course. Poma Alphas, like Black, are like cockroaches: They never die and they're fucking everywhere. Those combo sheave assemblies that Magic needed might be the one thing they'd actually have to remanufacture for that lift instead of just buying used. While Herons like Red are older and rarer, they still do seem to perform well for their age and while spare parts are likely harder to come by than Poma Alphas it's still not an SLI-type situation. I'm not aware of Borvigs being regarded as the most reliable lifts in the world, but Green having been installed only 4 years ago should trump that in terms of its longevity.

 

[Newpylong]

They should not need to ever fabricate more sheaves for that lift again. The wheels themselves will last forever they will just need to periodically do line work on them (liners, bearings, etc) as any other lift.

 

[Dickc]

As far as green goes, Borvig went out of business years ago, but his son is Partek, and does service and sell parts for the old Borvigs.

 

[Hastur]

The new pond is just about full. Most water at hand in decades.

So there’s that……

Between this Saturday, and next Tuesday and Wednesday their pond will be overflowing.

 

[slatham]

Between this Saturday, and next Tuesday and Wednesday their pond will be overflowing.

Yup. But hopefully thereafter the anticipated pattern change occurs and they can put that water, in an improved form, back on the hill.

 

[IceEidolon]

I'm genuinely curious if they go for a solid green chair opening or a TTB that counts on more going right/more production. From past performance they could get Green to Showoff or Hocus Pocus or Lower Carpet in this weather window and be solid. Top to bottom Carpet to Showoff adds, what, another 2000' of trail compared to just Green on down?