The NEW Magic Mountain

[ne_skier]

Yes, LMC is very long and takes lots of time. The biggest issue is the separate pump "lines", not the lack of stationary tower guns. LMC is on the 400 line, so once UMC/Medium/Trick/Wand are done, it competes in the "what's next argument" with Carumba (for alternative to Showoff when races are occurring) and Tali (THE signature trail). If its December, and you have the window, you hit LMC. If it's after the holidays, like this year, you need Carumba, and then have to go west.

The 300 line is only Showoff, Hocus Pocus, Terrain Park, Beginner and base area. This is how UMC/Medium/Wand/Show Off gets done relatively quickly - it uses both 400 and 300 lines simultaneously. What needs to be done IMHO - and I have NO IDEA whether it's feasible - is to connect the two lines so both pumps can send water through all pipes.

Another possible alternative is to connect the 300 line to the lower half of LMC (below 33 1/3) and lower Wizard. That way you can use 400 on Carpet from Green lift to 33 1/3, and 300 line from there down, simultaneously. Liklewise, you can use 400 for UWiz and Tali, and 300 for Lower Wizard (and perhaps the Tali runout), again, simultaneously.

Just need Newpylong to chime in, and probably shoot all kinds of holes in my theory LOL.......

THINK SNOW. There IS potential, Winter is NOT over!

All sounds interesting...snowmaking might have to be the next thing I waste my time nerding out on now that I've got lifts just about fully covered.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

All sounds interesting...snowmaking might have to be the next thing I waste my time nerding out on now that I've got lifts just about fully covered.

more snowmaking > more lift service

 

[Newpylong]

Yes, LMC is very long and takes lots of time. The biggest issue is the separate pump "lines", not the lack of stationary tower guns. LMC is on the 400 line, so once UMC/Medium/Trick/Wand are done, it competes in the "what's next argument" with Carumba (for alternative to Showoff when races are occurring) and Tali (THE signature trail). If its December, and you have the window, you hit LMC. If it's after the holidays, like this year, you need Carumba, and then have to go west.

The 300 line is only Showoff, Hocus Pocus, Terrain Park, Beginner and base area. This is how UMC/Medium/Wand/Show Off gets done relatively quickly - it uses both 400 and 300 lines simultaneously. What needs to be done IMHO - and I have NO IDEA whether it's feasible - is to connect the two lines so both pumps can send water through all pipes.

Another possible alternative is to connect the 300 line to the lower half of LMC (below 33 1/3) and lower Wizard. That way you can use 400 on Carpet from Green lift to 33 1/3, and 300 line from there down, simultaneously. Liklewise, you can use 400 for UWiz and Tali, and 300 for Lower Wizard (and perhaps the Tali runout), again, simultaneously.

Just need Newpylong to chime in, and probably shoot all kinds of holes in my theory LOL.......

THINK SNOW. There IS potential, Winter is NOT over!

You guys know far more about Magic's topology that I do. But I will say, regardless of how much fixed equipment there is, how ideal the weather is, and how efficiently the existing system is used, there is no way the "product" is going to get noticable better without more pumping capacity. If you took the acreage and did a typical wet bulb bucket break down and then factored in their uphill pumping capacity there simply aren't enough hours in the season to reasonably cover the place. Whoever put the system in to begin with put far more pipe on the hill than can reasonable be utilized.

I would say a relatively easy yet big improvement if the wet pit cannot accommodate another pump is to simply remove the 250 horse and put another 400 in its place. Then you redo inside the pumphouse to use a common header. That way both pumps could work either line or both. I'm not sure if the Pond pump could put enough water into the pit for that that so that might need to be upgraded too. This setup would allow for top to bottom snowmaking on one entire route. That's assuming the feed is sized appropriately all the way up.

 

[skithetrees]

You guys know far more about Magic's topology that I do. But I will say, regardless of how much fixed equipment there is, how ideal the weather is, and how efficiently the existing system is used, there is no way the "product" is going to get noticable better without more pumping capacity. If you took the acreage and did a typical wet bulb bucket break down and then factored in their uphill pumping capacity there simply aren't enough hours in the season to reasonably cover the place. Whoever put the system in to begin with put far more pipe on the hill than can reasonable be utilized.

I would say a relatively easy yet big improvement if the wet pit cannot accommodate another pump is to simply remove the 250 horse and put another 400 in its place. Then you redo inside the pumphouse to use a common header. That way both pumps could work either line or both. I'm not sure if the Pond pump could put enough water into the pit for that that so that might need to be upgraded too. This setup would allow for top to bottom snowmaking on one entire route. That's assuming the feed is sized appropriately all the way up.

I think that they need to make snow on LMC after showoff and trick. To me, it’s not even a question. Almost the entire year they have been saying summit and green chair is not for beginner skiing. To say beginners should only be riding a 200 ft conveyer is a rough spot to be in. I saw three different sleds going down on courtesy rides one lift ride up this weekend, two of the sleds were double packed with a parent and child. I would personally prefer talisman, but you can’t have no beginner skiing available 3/4 of the winter.

 

[slatham]

Trying to avoid driving further north should this snow actually hit, but yeah, seems unlikely magic will be worth it short of a monster dump next week.

I’d pay attention the the weather. Lots of opportunities. 3-5” the official NWS forecast for tomorrow (I think 5” a stretch personally). Even if Wed/Thur has some sleet or freezing r@#* it should be a big net gainer and help set them up. It’s the time of year where things *can* get real good real quick.

 

[slatham]

I think that they need to make snow on LMC after showoff and trick. To me, it’s not even a question. Almost the entire year they have been saying summit and green chair is not for beginner skiing. To say beginners should only be riding a 200 ft conveyer is a rough spot to be in. I saw three different sleds going down on courtesy rides one lift ride up this weekend, two of the sleds were double packed with a parent and child. I would personally prefer talisman, but you can’t have no beginner skiing available 3/4 of the winter.

Agreed, all things equal, which was not the case this year.

 

[skithetrees]

That said, magic this weekend epitomized what was so special about the place. No trouble getting a table during lunch rush, comparatively empty trials (with only 1/4 the mounting open), basically no lines, even with a 3/4 full lot and a vacation week. It’s amazing more people don’t come here.

 

[MG Skier]

Magic skied great today despite the limited terrain.
The snow was way better than I expected!

 

[Hastur]

looks like a good pattern for the NE the next 10 days. by 3/2 I'm betting they're back to 40+ trails and glades open.

 

[tnt1234]

looks like a good pattern for the NE the next 10 days. by 3/2 I'm betting they're back to 40+ trails and glades open.

Looks like a couple chances for decent snow...trying to avoid driving to N.Vt as I have limited time.

Think snow!

 

[IceEidolon]

Yes, LMC is very long and takes lots of time. The biggest issue is the separate pump "lines", not the lack of stationary tower guns. LMC is on the 400 line, so once UMC/Medium/Trick/Wand are done, it competes in the "what's next argument" with Carumba (for alternative to Showoff when races are occurring) and Tali (THE signature trail). If its December, and you have the window, you hit LMC. If it's after the holidays, like this year, you need Carumba, and then have to go west.

The 300 line is only Showoff, Hocus Pocus, Terrain Park, Beginner and base area. This is how UMC/Medium/Wand/Show Off gets done relatively quickly - it uses both 400 and 300 lines simultaneously. What needs to be done IMHO - and I have NO IDEA whether it's feasible - is to connect the two lines so both pumps can send water through all pipes.

Another possible alternative is to connect the 300 line to the lower half of LMC (below 33 1/3) and lower Wizard. That way you can use 400 on Carpet from Green lift to 33 1/3, and 300 line from there down, simultaneously. Liklewise, you can use 400 for UWiz and Tali, and 300 for Lower Wizard (and perhaps the Tali runout), again, simultaneously.

Just need Newpylong to chime in, and probably shoot all kinds of holes in my theory LOL.......

I think combining both pumps (which isn't zero extra complexity - both pumps have VFDs and there's likely some configuration changes required beyond just pipe and valves) is more likely than, say, turning the LMC drain line into a 300 line feed. 6" line can just about handle the current maximum pumproom output, and 8" line has a comfortable margin.

Also, LMC and Carumba absolutely can run at the same time with just the 400 line - it feeds up Carumba to Wand, then valves above Sunshine Corner to go up Medium or down LMC. (In theory, so can Talisman + LMC - just open East and West feeds simultaneously, and keep the discharge pressure within the normal range for LMC. With the crew sizes and pump capacity Magic has, this doesn't make sense, but the valve setup wouldn't stop you from trying.) I wouldn't particularly want to run Carumba at the same time as the Summit just from a pressure standpoint (but you *could*) but the pressure required for LMC is about 400'-600' of head loss lower. There just aren't enough portable low E guns to cover more than about 2000' of trail at once (100' per gun, 15 Impulse/Vipers, five Rats. This goes up to 2700' with 12 Rats with both compressors and to 3600' with 6x 150' fan guns, when there's fan power.) so between Carumba and patching holes on the 300 line, park, and learning center, there's nothing left for LMC even if they have it charged and are using it as a drain line.

 

[IceEidolon]

I think that they need to make snow on LMC after showoff and trick. To me, it’s not even a question. Almost the entire year they have been saying summit and green chair is not for beginner skiing. To say beginners should only be riding a 200 ft conveyer is a rough spot to be in. I saw three different sleds going down on courtesy rides one lift ride up this weekend, two of the sleds were double packed with a parent and child. I would personally prefer talisman, but you can’t have no beginner skiing available 3/4 of the winter.

Beginner terrain is essential. There's no good "next step", unfortunately - any way down off Green is going to have some "steeps" that would be blues at a lot of hills - but having groomed green terrain is better than "thin cover" by a lot.

Newpylong, their pumproom has individual "wet pits"/cans for the two pumps. I think tying the feeds together with isolation valves, to permit A+B on the 300 or 400 line, or the current setup, is the simplest way to boost output. Long term, I'd like to see a pump skid with smaller, redundant, easy to service pumps - but that kind of overhaul is likely a ways out.

Regardless, early season, they often aren't using the pump capacity they already have. They need a 6:1 Air:Water ratio to use all 400 line water on one compressor, or a 12:1 with both compressors. Impulses at 70 CFM are around 4.5:1 but they get shwacked with setup limits and the need to cover the top stretch of Upper Carpet, and those Baby Rats are 15:1 or worse in marginal. And that assumes they don't need *any* air for the 300 line, combined they need a 5:1 ratio with both compressors. In a good year, they're limited by the pumps. In a bad year they're absolutely held back by portable and inefficient equipment, especially in the early season rollout. I'd certainly like to see more available GPM, but more guns would be nice too.

 

[slatham]

Regarding Carumba and LMC, is there is enough water to run guns on Carumba and LMC simultaneously, if you had enough guns (and air too for that matter)?

 

[IceEidolon]

Let's take an HKD Impulse as the baseline gun, set up with 70 CFM and 15/30/30/45 GPM (27/22/18/14 degrees wetbulb, 400 psi).

Carumba/Lower Red Line is around 2000ish feet long, give or take. Call it 20 hydrants. 1400 CFM and 300 GPM at Stage 1. Go to Stage 2, you're using just about all your water, might not be able to valve every gun up - but at Stage 1 you're leaving 50%+ of that pump's capacity in the pond. And you don't have as much room on Carumba to point the sleds up, that'll take a degree or two off your Valve 2 temperature. And right now they don't even have 20 portables to put on Carumba.

And then figure they'll have pulled at least a couple sleds out of the rotation to handle base area/300 line objectives, typically, so there's like 12 low E guns on Carumba. With fixed towers literally anywhere on the Carumba/Wand/LMC loop, it's not a big deal to start guns for a couple hours while Day Shift pushes through the warm weather and valves all the portables down,, or if you have a little spare air, or while you kill half of Carumba to get a cat in and knock the piles over and move guns around, or whatever. Without fixed towers, you lose an hour or three getting portables positioned and started, and you have to account for another hour or two for shutdown and cleanup. By that point is it worth the time (where your crew *isn't* keeping your other guns dug out) to start up...? Towers are just there, one guy takes one minute to start one. Assuming they don't get Klik manual, then it's like ten seconds.

Again, Magic could absolutely use more pumproom. We're talking about 200-400 GPM difference here and only on early season terrain. Doubling the 400 line pump would add 500 +/-200 GPM, plus build in some redundancy - that impacts anywhere on the hill, any time it's in the mid teens or colder. I think that linking the 300 and 400 line pumps in the pump room is the best bang for the buck way to do that.

 

[Newpylong]

Yes that all makes sense. The fact that both up lines have not been tied into a common header is such a low hanging fruit that it's strange to me that it doesn't been done.

Does the 400 pump discharge at a pressure above the rating of the valves and fittings on the 300 line? It's the only reason I can think of.

 

[tnt1234]

Anyone there today? How much snow? Anything new opening?

 

[ne_skier]

Magic saying 4" this morning. Nothing new opening today but should open up some low angle glades (White Kitten, Disappearing Act if I had to guess) for the weekend. Underwhelming given the forecasts I saw but a potential for a bigger storm come early next week.

 

[IceEidolon]

My guess is the VFDs wouldn't play nice together. Even if you have to take the 300 pump offline to run upper mountain trails, you could get near double the maximum output on Wand/LMC for sure, and probably Sorcerer/Talisman/Middle Wizard/Lower Wizard. 30' of pipe and three valves isn't *that* big of an expansion project, but bringing in a controls guy to make the pumps play nice might have scared them off.

 

[Newpylong]

There likely is another reason because it's been the same setup far before they installed the VFDs. Perhaps they were so water limited in the past they felt that setup (dissimilar pumps matched to separate up lines) was most efficient versus running a 400 horse on the lower loop wide open and just regulating pressure with a control valve.

The 250 likely has either a lower discharge pressure and TDH so marrying them would not be an option. Putting that aside the VFDs would play nice if the pressure monitor was spliced into both cabinets.

 

[IceEidolon]

So long as they're below the maximum pressure of the weaker pump, it should be able to load up to 100% then cut in the larger pump at partial output, up to the maximum working pressure of the weaker pump? Both pumps need to see both pressure sensors, though, so the two pumps ramp smoothly and startup/shutdown stays simple.

Actually now that I think about it, start the larger pump with a very low setpoint. Start the smaller pump with the service setpoint and charge the line as normal. Then, bring the large pump setpoint to, say, 20 psi below the service setpoint. As demand exceeds 100% the pressure falls, the big pump ramps up and maintains the lower pressure, and never ramps up enough for the small pump to stop.