Thoughts on RFID for Avalanche "beacons"

[SkiDog]

I was thinking, and have seen some articles on the possible use of RFID tags possibly imbedded into lift tickets to be used as "traking" devices to possibly find lost avalanche victims. This might be singled out to in bounds avies, but might still have some merit. I was also thinking of how great a tool it may be for the resort itself in terms of, what trails are getting the most traffic for snow making and grooming purposes, for placing saftey patrols on those heavily used trails, and might give them so ideas on how to alleviate some of the "crowding"..

anyone else heard of or think this idea has any merit? I dont know the technical limitations of rfid, especially at depth under snowpack, but I think the range and cost is pretty low, but initial investment in "tracking" equipment and software might be too expensive..

Thoughts?

M

 

[ctenidae]

RFID's pretty cheap, and ranges are decent (obviously greater rang = higher price). Range is mostly a function of the detector- I don't think there's any significant difference in cost for the chips themselves. I don't think they'll work all that well through snowpack, but I'm sure that can be worked around.
It would probably be great for Operations to know how many people are skiing where. the downside is that it would be very easy for the mountain to know exactly where you ski, and they could then target advertising at you based on that. Of course, you could refuse to fill out their forms or pay in cash to avoid that.
Some mountains will rent a group (liek a family) devices that let them check in at places so the rest of the family can find them.I think those sensors will lay the groundwork for systems like youdescribe in the future, and are likely to pay for it as well. I would expect to see, at the mountains that have the check-in points, more of a free range tracker coming on line next, possibly with recievers at the top and bottom of lifts. Covering an entire mountain would require a lot of hardware, and it'd have to be some pretty sturdy equipment.

 

[dmc]

God forbid theres an inbounds avi and they spend 3 minutes looking for a signal that turns out to be a lost ticket...

 

[SkiDog]

God forbid theres an inbounds avi and they spend 3 minutes looking for a signal that turns out to be a lost ticket...

Good thought....i was just wondering only beacuse I saw brief mention of the possibility of using the RFID technology in an article...I can't remember where though... :blink: ....what are the odds of the "lost" ticket being directly in the path of the avalanche though? Could happen yes....the odd's i's say would be mostly against that, but would certianly be tragic if it did happen.

I was thinking it too because it might be a "cheaper" way to protect all of the skiers at the resort on the Ski resorts "responsibility", instead of hoping individuals will be wearing personal beacons.

M

 

[SkiDog]

Also possibly with the RFID and associated software they might be able to determine that the "lost" ticket had not "moved" in a certian period of time therefore negating the need to search that "tag"? I would think if the resort was going to the trouble of using RFID technology they'd use all the available options including using it to determien skier movement and traffic. Like blips moving around an air traffic control monitor, they wouldnt need to be watched all the time, but in the event of a catastrophe thye could single out "bad" signals like the lost ticket scenario.

Keep the thoughts coming please..would be a cool technology to use for something other than tracking silly Walmart packages around the country..

M

 

[ctenidae]

HEy- tracking those packages means Wally World can shave 2 more cents off the price of that totally useless piece of crap you bought. Well, tracking, plus cutting employee benefits and firing anyone who's been there more than 7 years.

I don't think we'll see anything like broad useage at any ski resort for at least 5 years. The Tech's not mature or cheap enough, adn doesn't show any immediate benefits to teh ski areas.

 

[bvibert]

Also possibly with the RFID and associated software they might be able to determine that the "lost" ticket had not "moved" in a certian period of time therefore negating the need to search that "tag"? I would think if the resort was going to the trouble of using RFID technology they'd use all the available options including using it to determien skier movement and traffic. Like blips moving around an air traffic control monitor, they wouldnt need to be watched all the time, but in the event of a catastrophe thye could single out "bad" signals like the lost ticket scenario.

Keep the thoughts coming please..would be a cool technology to use for something other than tracking silly Walmart packages around the country..

M

Its probably more likely that the ticket would get ripped off during the avalanche. Meaning that the ticket could be some distance away from the victim...

 

[SkiDog]

Also possibly with the RFID and associated software they might be able to determine that the "lost" ticket had not "moved" in a certian period of time therefore negating the need to search that "tag"? I would think if the resort was going to the trouble of using RFID technology they'd use all the available options including using it to determien skier movement and traffic. Like blips moving around an air traffic control monitor, they wouldnt need to be watched all the time, but in the event of a catastrophe thye could single out "bad" signals like the lost ticket scenario.

Keep the thoughts coming please..would be a cool technology to use for something other than tracking silly Walmart packages around the country..

M

Its probably more likely that the ticket would get ripped off during the avalanche. Meaning that the ticket could be some distance away from the victim...

Gotcha...another really good point.....maybe a different type of "attachment" would be in order too...

Keep em coming..Thanks.

M

 

[bvibert]

Also possibly with the RFID and associated software they might be able to determine that the "lost" ticket had not "moved" in a certian period of time therefore negating the need to search that "tag"? I would think if the resort was going to the trouble of using RFID technology they'd use all the available options including using it to determien skier movement and traffic. Like blips moving around an air traffic control monitor, they wouldnt need to be watched all the time, but in the event of a catastrophe thye could single out "bad" signals like the lost ticket scenario.

Keep the thoughts coming please..would be a cool technology to use for something other than tracking silly Walmart packages around the country..

M

Its probably more likely that the ticket would get ripped off during the avalanche. Meaning that the ticket could be some distance away from the victim...

Gotcha...another really good point.....maybe a different type of "attachment" would be in order too...

Keep em coming..Thanks.

M

The problem I see with the attachment is that most people attach them to their jacket zipper pull, which aren't very strong. I know I've lost a ticket when the zipper pull busted. So yeah, they'd have to find a more reliable attachment system. I think C10 is right, we won't see this technology for quite a few years. I just don't see the pay back for the mountains...

 

[SkiDog]

I agree that the tecnology is at LEAST a few years off...but I still see REAL value for the mountain as far as marketing and traffic control for grooming purposes and new route defining....etc....the ability to use it for avi search would just be an added bonus IMO....thankfully we dont see a TON of inbounds avi's that take people...

M

 

[dmc]

Its probably more likely that the ticket would get ripped off during the avalanche. Meaning that the ticket could be some distance away from the victim...

Thats why we keep our tranceivers closed to our bodies...

"On at the car - Off at the bar..."

 

[ctenidae]

Of course, if you have an RFID enabled ticket, you could keep it in your pocket, and get scanned as you go through the line. Might makeit easy for people to slip in, though, unless you had a physical gate.

Try to quantify the value to a ski area, though.
Traffic flow: Patrol already "knows" where most people go, Operations alread "knows" where to groom next. Both are going to be reluctant to give up tehir slots in order to gain incrementally better information. Even then, what do you do with that information? Groom the places you groom anyway?

Really, the best savings I can see are a reduction in total staff needed (gate at the lift, fewer patrollers), and a possible reduction in insurance costs due to better safety and tracking. Both of those reductions are going to have a hard time offsetting the cost of setup.

I agree the technology will eventually be used (in ski areas, as in every other apsect of our foremrly private lives), but not any time real soon. RFID will be pervasive in our daily lives (like automatic checkout at the grocery store) well before ski areas get in on it. I just better not ever get a ticket from a ski area for going too fast in a slow zone.

 

[dmc]

I agree the technology will eventually be used (in ski areas, as in every other apsect of our foremrly private lives), but not any time real soon. RFID will be pervasive in our daily lives (like automatic checkout at the grocery store) well before ski areas get in on it. I just better not ever get a ticket from a ski area for going too fast in a slow zone.

I heard an NPR piece on RFID and thievery...
Aparently it's posible for thieves for remotly scan your shopping bags to identify what items you just bought...

 

[SkiDog]

I agree the technology will eventually be used (in ski areas, as in every other apsect of our foremrly private lives), but not any time real soon. RFID will be pervasive in our daily lives (like automatic checkout at the grocery store) well before ski areas get in on it. I just better not ever get a ticket from a ski area for going too fast in a slow zone.

I heard an NPR piece on RFID and thievery...
Aparently it's posible for thieves for remotly scan your shopping bags to identify what items you just bought...

Man crooks will find any angle eh? They wanna put them in passports I read today so that they're harder to fake...

Might not be a bad idea for something like ski "protection" though.maybe put rfid tags on the skis so you can track them like a lojack...eh...millions of uses I guess..I guess we're all wondering the same thing...privacy..I know some people that are soo exterme about things they won't even get a grocery store card (for discounts) becasue they don't want their habits tracked...funny..i just got mine with a phony address and name just for the discounts..


M

 

[dmc]

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/462664/14

 

[SkiDog]

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/462664/14

Well there ya have it eh...

Thanks...I knew I couldnt possibly have thought anything original up...its just not in me...

M

 

[ctenidae]

Interesting.

I think RFID does have a high potential for privacy abuse. I really don't liek teh pasports with RFID, but not so much because of privacy. If someone had a scanner (cheap and easy to get/calibrate), they could walk through a crowd anywhere in the world and pick out all the Americans. That can't be good. Not that it's all that hard to pick us out, anyway, but why make it easier? Plus the security protocol on the chips is very weak (by the State Department's own admission, even), which opens up all kinds of potential problems. Unfortunately, I just got my passport renewed. As soon as I get it in, I'll let you know if I'm RFID'ed.