Tight A&& instructor Turns

[Sparky]

I don’t know how many instructors there are in this forum, but I would be interested in hearing from anybody that has hear the above term. The ultimate question being does the formal training process for instructors cause them to lose some of the flexible, spontaneity, casualness etc. from their skiing? :-?

 

[tree_skier]

I don't think it is the formal training process in as much as the lack of experience in the instructors.

Now before jumping all over me let me explain. The pro's who were very good to great skiers before becoming instuctors become smoother and more fluid with the training, due to a better understanding of the entire process. Now pro's who were intermediate to advanced before get robotic as they try to mold a movement pattern that is new to them. Now they may be on snow every weekend but with most of thier time teaching beginners and in clinics there is very little free skiing done which develops the smoothness of the turns amd the ability to adapt to changing conditions and terrian.

Now I see todays crop of young racers as having the stiffness and robotic look you are mentioning. They are only being taught that feet apart lock up on the edges approach which works great on ice but watch them after a dump, they ski they same way with little success or fun.

 

[riverc0il]

could you describe what you mean by tight instructor turns? i would consider a "tight turn" one that is quick and snappy with not much down hill vertical in between turns yet not much loss of speed either. quite a handy turn to utilize in the trees or in the bumps. essentially, one of many turns in any expert skier's repetoire.

 

[castlerock]

Ohhh Man, this is one that will get me off on a rant.

Being an instructor does not make you a good skier, just like being a doctor doesn't make you healthy. Instructors take heat, for not being "Jeremy Nobis". This is silly. Instructors are educated in teaching methods. It is ridiculous to assume that they should ski like a rock star. Why people put instructors on a pedestal just to tear them down is beyond me. "tight ass instructor turns"?. Take an intermediate skier who has unrefined ski sense, give them some mechanical cues and you get the stereotypical instructor alluded to in the "tight ass" phrase.

The same thing applies to racers. Young racers are just that, young. They are also given some cues to help promote the proper technique, eventually that gets inegrated into thier sking and it doesn't look mechanical any more.

I think it comes from a resentment based on insecurity. Some weak skiers see someone with a "jacket" representing authority. When that person isn't "better" than them, they make fun of that person with the perjorative terms of "tight ass turns", etc.

The funny part is, that my instructor friends, typically dump their official jackets when they are in the woods ripping.

It is basically a thankless job, spending many hours on novice slopes with people who are new to the sport. Instuctors need to be fun, and convey simple cues to get people in the right positions to ski.

I'll also take umbrage with the comment that there is little free sking done by instructors. I have some instructor friends that I rip with in the woods every weekend day. They are fluid, subtle skiers that have ski sense honed over years of skiing. Being an instructor has not hindered their development.

 

[JimG.]

Ohhh Man, this is one that will get me off on a rant.

Being an instructor does not make you a good skier, just like being a doctor doesn't make you healthy. Instructors take heat, for not being "Jeremy Nobis". This is silly. Instructors are educated in teaching methods. It is ridiculous to assume that they should ski like a rock star. Why people put instructors on a pedestal just to tear them down is beyond me. "tight ass instructor turns"?. Take an intermediate skier who has unrefined ski sense, give them some mechanical cues and you get the stereotypical instructor alluded to in the "tight ass" phrase.

The same thing applies to racers. Young racers are just that, young. They are also given some cues to help promote the proper technique, eventually that gets inegrated into thier sking and it doesn't look mechanical any more.

I think it comes from a resentment based on insecurity. Some weak skiers see someone with a "jacket" representing authority. When that person isn't "better" than them, they make fun of that person with the perjorative terms of "tight ass turns", etc.

The funny part is, that my instructor friends, typically dump their official jackets when they are in the woods ripping.

It is basically a thankless job, spending many hours on novice slopes with people who are new to the sport. Instuctors need to be fun, and convey simple cues to get people in the right positions to ski.

I'll also take umbrage with the comment that there is little free sking done by instructors. I have some instructor friends that I rip with in the woods every weekend day. They are fluid, subtle skiers that have ski sense honed over years of skiing. Being an instructor has not hindered their development.

This Level III instructor thanks you for this...well said!

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

Spanky never heard of it.....
Paulelliott aka sjr/bling skier

 

[Sparky]

could you describe what you mean by tight instructor turns? i would consider a "tight turn" one that is quick and snappy with not much down hill vertical in between turns yet not much loss of speed either. quite a handy turn to utilize in the trees or in the bumps. essentially, one of many turns in any expert skier's repetoire.

by "tight a&&" I mean its not very relaxed, flowing, designed by the fun instead of the desire to get the right form and look.

 

[riverc0il]

i honestly don't see many instructors ski that way. i actually notice the opposite to be true often times, that instructors are really loose. just my observations from what i have seen from the lift. i am a student (independant study currently) of the turn and often watch instructors in addition to every other skier i can get my eyes on.

 

[JimG.]

i honestly don't see many instructors ski that way. i actually notice the opposite to be true often times, that instructors are really loose. just my observations from what i have seen from the lift. i am a student (independant study currently) of the turn and often watch instructors in addition to every other skier i can get my eyes on.

I think I know what Sparky means now...he's talking about newer instructors who haven't yet mastered good movement patterns and are kind of faking it until they get it.

Look like wooden soldiers; the body parts are kind of in the right places, but there's just no flow.

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

i honestly don't see many instructors ski that way. i actually notice the opposite to be true often times, that instructors are really loose. just my observations from what i have seen from the lift. i am a student (independant study currently) of the turn and often watch instructors in addition to every other skier i can get my eyes on.

I think I know what Sparky means now...he's talking about newer instructors who haven't yet mastered good movement patterns and are kind of faking it until they get it.

Look like wooden soldiers; the body parts are kind of in the right places, but there's just no flow.

OK got ya btw PSIA is not dead, it just smells funny.

 

[Greg]

i am a student (independant study currently) of the turn and often watch instructors in addition to every other skier i can get my eyes on.

You're a student? Damn, Steve - you make some of the nicest turns I've ever seen... Stop being so humble... :wink: :roll:

 

[riverc0il]

well, student may not be the best word. i am always watching other people and trying to learn something new and see the beauty in other skiers' turns. there is always something i can do better

 

[Sparky]

i honestly don't see many instructors ski that way. i actually notice the opposite to be true often times, that instructors are really loose. just my observations from what i have seen from the lift. i am a student (independant study currently) of the turn and often watch instructors in addition to every other skier i can get my eyes on.

I think I know what Sparky means now...he's talking about newer instructors who haven't yet mastered good movement patterns and are kind of faking it until they get it.

Look like wooden soldiers; the body parts are kind of in the right places, but there's just no flow.

That is what I'm talking about. Knowing the movement patterns even being able to do them just doesn’t help with the flow. It is a little easier when your not in uniform and at a deferent mountain. I guess the point is that if as an instructor you feel stiff and wooden, how do you keep your students from picking up that vibe? You want to give them something they can go and use to increase their fun factor, not a series of exercises to struggle with. So if anybody has any experiences either taking or giving lessons that add to the fun factor please let me know.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

I had a coach (actually, Riv might have had the same coach, 10 years after (pun intended)) who accused (rightfully, at the time) of many patrollers free skiing with a posture like they were pulling a sled.

Fortunately, I see less of that now (if I do this, please let me know, so I can smoke more crack and loosen up a little), but there still seems to some attempts at self-inflicted "form over function" in some patrollers.

Maybe it's just loosing the pack, but I think I ski better in a civilian parka

 

[JimG.]

So if anybody has any experiences either taking or giving lessons that add to the fun factor please let me know.

1) Keep the class moving. Standing around or, worse, doing exercises and watching each other alot will only make folks stiffen up even more. Take a few runs to loosen up, keep the drills to a minimum to start the day.

2) Less talk. Most of these people with no flow got that way listening to instructors who talk too much. If you fill their heads with alot of technical jargon, they'll think too much and won't ski smoothly. I know I ski better when I think little and use my physical and athletic skills instinctively.

3) Pick one skill or movement to work on and stick to it...don't wander all over the place trying to fix everything at once. Confusion=stiffness.

4) Be happy! Joke around, make fun of the things you need to work on, let them know what you're working on and how you try to improve. Too many instructors preach from a pedestal and this isolates them from their students. Be a buddy!

5) Drills:
a)shuffle feet quickly back and forth while making long radius turns; as comfort increases, shorten the turn radius.
b)same drill, but step up and down with both feet during the turns instead of shuffling.
c)keep their hands up and in front of them. Have them take off their poles and rest them on their wrists with their arms up. Then ski them down the hill. The goal is to keep the poles from falling off the wrists. Remind them they need to see their hands up and in front.
d)any one-legged drill you feel appropriate. This would be the last thing in the progression. Make sure you start them on non-threatening terrain.

Poor flow is usually due to a locked and stiff center. If your hips and center aren't loose, there isn't going to be any flow. Anything to get a student to stand up taller, keep their hips forward, and unlock their center will improve flow. Remind them that skiing is like dancing, there needs to be some rhythm. Have them count out while turning to emphasize this.

 

[Sparky]

thanks JimG.

 

[Greg]

well, student may not be the best word. i am always watching other people and trying to learn something new and see the beauty in other skiers' turns. there is always something i can do better

Yeah, yeah, yeah... :roll:

For those that haven't had a pleasure of watching Steve ski, he has some of the best form I've seen. Super quiet upper body and he carves short radius turns effortlessly:



Remind me to catch a vid of you Steve, next time we're out.

 

[riverc0il]

speaking of vids....

i just bought a digital camcorder for making some quality ski movies this coming season. should be good times.

 

[Greg]

speaking of vids....

i just bought a digital camcorder for making some quality ski movies this coming season. should be good times.

If we get out together this season, give me a primer on the camcorder and I'll catch an action video of "Air riverc0il"!

 

[bvibert]

speaking of vids....

i just bought a digital camcorder for making some quality ski movies this coming season. should be good times.

If we get out together this season, give me a primer on the camcorder and I'll catch an action video of "Air riverc0il"!

Great, let me know when this is going on so I can stay away, I don't need any movies of the bvibert snow cloud...