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Vermont Likely to Close 3 State Colleges

thetrailboss

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This is a ******* disgrace. America will be paying for this money-grab fear sham for years to come.

$1.25 BILLION to a state with only about 600,000 humans, and fewer than 50 total COVID19 deaths.

At some point, I'll feel forced to convert a portion of my portfolio to gold futures.

That seemed like a lot to me as well.


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VTKilarney

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Janel Hanrahan, an Associate Professor and Department Chair of the Atmospheric Sciences program, has offered an interesting argument to keep NVU-Lyndon open. Her argument was published in a letter to the local newspaper.

Her argument: Keeping NVU-Lyndon open is necessary to combat climate change.

Her letter is a rambling affair, so I will summarize:
1) The Climate Consensus is a department-led student climate science outreach group that works to increase climate literacy among the general public. Closing the campus will bring this work to an abrupt end.
2) Closing the campus is "silencing those who might otherwise change the world."

A couple of thoughts:
1) Ms. Hanrahan refers to the Atmospheric Sciences program as "nationally recognized." The Titanic was nationally recognized. Big deal. She conveniently leaves out any sort of ranking, which ought to tell you something. Another red flag is that this "nationally recognized" program is chaired by a mere Associate Professor.

2) Her entire argument is based on a false premise - that the Atmospheric Science program would just disappear. A consolidated campus could continue to offer the program and perhaps even add another adjunct or associate professor.

3) Her argument is based on an appeal to emotion - that closing the department would somehow contribute to our planet suffering climatological devastation. "We could have saved the planet if only those kids at Lyndon were allowed to do their research!"

4) Like most arguments I have seen in favor of keeping the campus open, hers involves a heavy dose of hypocrisy. If we want to combat climate change, consolidating the colleges onto one campus is exactly the type of action that is needed. The carbon footprint of three campuses is much greater.

What's most troubling is that the chair of the department's best argument isn't good science. If she can't even make a good argument that is absent of logical fallacies, who can?
 
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BenedictGomez

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Ms. Hanrahan is teaching your child if you send your kid to that overpriced, failing school.

Here's the truth, our student loan debt sham will eventually end, and with it, the life of probably hundreds of crummy, indistinguishable colleges. COVID19 has hugely boosted national debt, likely accelerating that end. America's debt will now exceed GDP for the first time in the life of anyone reading this. Happily, shortly after the death of hundreds of crappy colleges will coincide with the time America's no longer short important jobs like carpenters, electricians, ironworkers, mechanics, plumbers, and the like.
 

dblskifanatic

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The fact these are not the greatest schools & are relatively expensive in that context has been mentioned, as has bloated admin. But I wonder if cultural change to Vermont itself could also be to blame?

What do I mean by this.

It used to be that Vermonters were like pets with electric collars, and the border of Vermont was the electric fence. Vermonters didn't travel & Vermonters didn't leave. When I moved to n.VT over 20 years ago, I was shocked how many born & raised Vermonters had never been to Montreal, a beautiful city with great culture, activities, and experiences, even though it was literally an hour (or less) from their home. To someone from New Jersey, this seemed beyond bizarre. And while I admit I may be 100% wrong on this point, my sense is that this is no longer the case. That young (or young'ish) Vermonters are given to travel, and no longer think it impossible to leave Vermont's borders, either to attend college or perhaps even to leave forever. In that scenario, you can imagine these colleges losing the ability to attract the 17 year old Vermonters who were previously their bread-and-butter. If I'm correct on that cultural shift, they're doomed by this as well as all the prior reasons mentioned.

You have no clue! I am from NEK and 90% of my graduating class moved away as in out of state. Same with my siblings classmates. That electric fence analogy is dumb ass talk! Do some people stay absolutely which is that case any where you go.

In fact my home town, over the years I have been gone has actually experienced out of staters looking for that quiet little town.

The whole Montreal thing! There are many people who could give a rats ass about that culture or their activities! I have been there because I have relatives there. I also like visiting different parts of that city as well, but I certainly do not expect everyone should visit there. Heck there are an estimated 16 million skiers in this country why aren’t the rest of the Americans skiing, I know a lot of people in Colorado that do not ski just like Vermont.

Also, I went to LSC and I bet I do better pay wise than some would think here based on discussions. While a school can definitely help with higher pay, it is the individual that takes what ever degree and turn it into a career or some path that makes you happy! LSC was a great stepping stone for me because it was with in commuting distance, had the degree program I wanted and my military benefit could pay for it! It served a purpose because I sure as hell was not getting in Harvard , Yale, Dartmouth, Cornell etc. I was able to get into UVM but it costs 3-4 times as much and my parents income was just over the limit to get financial aide. So ..... LSC served as my spring board and I do not regret it!

I feel bad for those who would prefer a local school and now are not going to have that luxury.

Do I think the tuition is too high now? Absolutely! I think there is some restructuring that could have taken place and that 9 million that Harvard does not want could have settled some of the financial issues. This is more tongue and cheek!

Sorry for the rant!



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dblskifanatic

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It may have more to do with the fact that there just aren't many opportunities in Vermont for young people due in large part to the tax burden on both people and businesses. If you know that you are going to leave for work, why not go to college and make connections in a part of the country that you want to live in.

Because not everyone can uproot and move then start attending school elsewhere without family support!


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BenedictGomez

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You have no clue! I am from NEK and 90% of my graduating class moved away as in out of state. Same with my siblings classmates. That electric fence analogy is dumb ass talk! Do some people stay absolutely which is that case any where you go.

Which was precisely my argument.

So having "no clue" & being a "dumbass" here is about you not reading for content. I dont know where you'd find the data, but I'd stake my life on a higher percentage of Vermonters in 2020 leaving for out-of-state colleges than Vermonters in 1980 or 1990, etc..

And I stand by my comment regarding an unusual proportion of northern Vermonters not being well-traveled 20 or 25 years ago (I say that stands even today versus much of our nation, though not as dramatically). It shocked me how many people I met who never left the country, never been to Europe, etc.
 

dblskifanatic

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Which was precisely my argument.

So having "no clue" & being a "dumbass" here is about you not reading for content. I dont know where you'd find the data, but I'd stake my life on a higher percentage of Vermonters in 2020 leaving for out-of-state colleges than Vermonters in 1980 or 1990, etc..

And I stand by my comment regarding an unusual proportion of northern Vermonters not being well-traveled 20 or 25 years ago (I say that stands even today versus much of our nation, though not as dramatically). It shocked me how many people I met who never left the country, never been to Europe, etc.

I left VT 39 years ago for the military then returned for 3 years then left for good! In fact my entire family outside of my parents left. A large number of my friend and relatives left as well. I think you are over generalizing!

This is a general United States article that does not specifically call out VT but as you can see that there are many Americans that have not even traveled out of their own state let alone the US. And who cares! There is nothing wrong with that - myself well ya it does not work but I like to see shit and experience the outdoors. But not everyone does the same thing - that would be boring!

As far as Vermonter’s leaving for out of state schools well that did not start happening recently - it was happening 49’years ago too!




https://www.forbes.com/sites/lealan...nd-the-state-where-they-were-born-a-surprise/


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1dog

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Isn't the basic argument that free will and free markets - even in higher ed, should win the day? Example:

UMASS has over 400 staff in admin at $200K or higher - not one has been laid-off. Heck not one state employee has in MA - are all essential?

In a free market higher ed, where taxpayer money is not supporting the cost, that would never happen - heck it might never even get that high in terms of the number of wage-earners being paid that much - not to work.

On-line ed is going to take the place ( or a at least part of) of a lot of local schools curriculum - some like SUNH- appear to be capitalizing on that trend. Others, not so much. What's the Adam Smith quote? 'Creative destruction'.

Inefficient Statist/Big government money just slows that process down - and places our kids and grandkids generations in unsustainable debt.


No one has seen any nation, free or otherwise, print itself out of economic hardships - unless it is short term and it pays the debt off. We did that after 1945, not since. But then we had gold - if we didn't have a sufficient amount, we couldn't print dollars.

That ended in 1971. Congress and Nixon.
 

1dog

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Isn't the basic argument that free will and free markets - even in higher ed, should win the day? Example:

UMASS has over 400 staff in admin at $200K or higher - not one has been laid-off. Heck not one state employee has in MA - are all essential?

In a free market higher ed, where taxpayer money is not supporting the cost, that would never happen - heck it might never even get that high in terms of the number of wage-earners being paid that much - not to work.

On-line ed is going to take the place ( or a at least part of) of a lot of local schools curriculum - some like SUNH- appear to be capitalizing on that trend. Others, not so much. What's the Adam Smith quote? 'Creative destruction'.

Inefficient Statist/Big government money just slows that process down - and places our kids and grandkids generations in unsustainable debt.


No one has seen any nation, free or otherwise, print itself out of economic hardships - unless it is short term and it pays the debt off. We did that after 1945, not since. But then we had gold - if we didn't have a sufficient amount, we couldn't print dollars.

That ended in 1971. Congress and Nixon.
 

BenedictGomez

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Fiscally responsible & reasonable individual loses job is so phenomenally new Vermont.
 

thetrailboss

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https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/30/castleton-university-president-resigns/

And note the NVU president is also looking for a job. You can't make this stuff up.

Well, the NVU President put feelers out a while back.

Shocking that the Chancellor decided to put stable CSU into chaos by unilaterally deciding he was going to fire the President and then move the NVU President over there. That obviously backfired badly. So now there are FOUR institutions with a serious clouds over their heads.

A FOIA also revealed that the Chancellor had been warning the Governor and Legislature of issues a month before he unveiled the controversial plan.
 

VTKilarney

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An interesting quote from a letter to the editor in today’s newspaper:

According to data from the U.S. Department of Education (IPEDS), the residential Vermont State Colleges (Castleton, Northern Vermont University, and Vermont Technical College) spend 66% more per student on administrative expenses than other comparable colleges. When the additional costs of the chancellor’s office are added, the contrasts are even more extreme.
 

uphillklimber

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If they are spending money like that, I do not feel bad about them shutting down.. Sure, I feel for the employees earning workers wages, but an administratively bloated system should not continue to be funded.

$0.02
 

VTKilarney

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The bad news just keeps coming for NVU-Lyndon.

From VTDigger:
The most precipitous enrollment downswings are forecast at Northern Vermont University, where school officials say that headcounts could drop by as much as 30% next year. Pearce’s analysis notes that, as of May 15, only 99 accepted applicants at NVU-Lyndon had submitted deposits for the fall. That’s exactly half as many as had made deposits by this time last year.

https://vtdigger.org/2020/06/09/rep...-30-million-or-more-to-get-through-next-year/

Let's be honest. It's over for NVU-Lyndon. The people in denial about that reality are the last couple of people left at the party wondering who turned out the lights.
 
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