Vermont Likely to Close 3 State Colleges

[VTKilarney]

My understanding more than leaving for other schools out of state, the primary contributor is a reduction in school aged children in the state. Those who graduate high school are still attending college at the same rate, there's just fewer graduates to attract to the state schools.

Total number of students was 106,341 in 1997. By 2015 that number had dropped to 84,519 and continues to drop.

That is a very good point.

 

[thetrailboss]

This makes no sense. They are both poorly ranked northern New England colleges that have attempted to make up for declining enrollment by developing online programs. One school succeeded very well. The other (NVU) didn't gain nearly the same traction. Both schools had equal opportunity to pursue this path.

Actually, it is about as apples to apples as you can get.

NVU's online program started about two years ago; SNHU has been in it since 1995. Big difference.

 

[thetrailboss]

Let's be honest. You CONSTANTLY harp on the tax burden that Vermonter's face. And yet in this instance you are turning a blind eye to the obvious consequences of keeping several campuses open rather than consolidating in order to stop losing money.

It's absolutely fair to call you out on this hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy? No. You just yelling? Yes. Again, you're attributing positions to me that I don't have. The tax burden is an issue, yes, but nowhere in this thread have I said that the solution is to up taxes. I don't pretend to have all the answers to this issue, especially considering that this crisis is six days old.

And, more to the point, you're using me as a strawman for your arguments. Frankly, I stopped listening to you like five pages back because it was you talking non-stop and making positions and arguments up that you thought I said when I didn't.

I don't see how losing 500 jobs, which actually becomes 2,000 jobs when you consider the ripple effect (and before you nitpick that to death, that is what Vermont's economist said to the Vermont Senate the other day) in the most rural areas of the state is at all a good thing. It only makes a bleak situation much worse.

 

[AdironRider]

To further your hypocrisy, you left that community and took your money with it. That is at least a couple jobs lost given YOUR career. But the college must stay to save jobs?

Sorry bud, but if you can do it, so can the college. At least you aren't a failure.

 

[thetrailboss]

Ah, I see you're back! No doubt you've already figured out how to fix them.

Yeah man we get it, you are totally cool with the State continuing to bail out your friends / family. I'm sure the people you know / benefit aren't wasting a cent.

That's not my point. Not my argument. See my point about strawman. That's what you're doing here. I am not saying the system is perfect as it is. Far from it. Frankly, I have not talked much about it in here because what little focus and energy I have left has been spent working with folks, be it from a distance, to help save the schools (they are saved for now) and now to talk about ideas to move forward. I don't see any point in arguing, or being yelled at, in here.

To further your hypocrisy, you left that community and took your money with it. That is at least a couple jobs lost given YOUR career. But the college must stay to save jobs?

So in a different venue, someone made this point the other day. I'll say to you what I said to him and that is this is a cheap shot and you know it. Yes, we left in large part because of my wife's residency. Yes, we left because of other issues. That said, I have put time, effort, and money into helping my community at home--be it Burke Mountain (no doubt I will hear your unsolicited opinions about that mountain's situation as you are the authority on running ski areas) or now LSC. The larger point, about taking our revenue with us, is true, but at last check I recall you did the same. The key difference being I am engaging folks back home and offering help while you are ranting in here.

And yet I have not heard your brilliant advice on what these schools need to do to remain open. I'm disappointed.

 

[VTKilarney]

NVU's online program started about two years ago; SNHU has been in it since 1995. Big difference.

It is a big difference. One college was visionary. The other wasn't.

 

[VTKilarney]

The tax burden is an issue, yes, but nowhere in this thread have I said that the solution is to up taxes. I don't pretend to have all the answers to this issue, especially considering that this crisis is six days old.

You admitted that for just the next year the state is going to have to come up with $25 million. And that's for one year. So, yeah, you have said that, at least for the time being, the solution is up to taxes. The college has been trying to figure out for YEARS a way around that. And so far nobody has made it work. That ought to tell you something - especially as the demographics are projected to get worse.

 

[thetrailboss]

It is a big difference. One college was visionary. The other wasn't.

Your point was that they are apples to apples. Mine is that you can't compare these programs because one has been in existence since 1995 and they have a 23 year head start. But you changed the point so that you were right.

And SNHU is private. LSC/Johnson/JSC are not.

 

[VTKilarney]

And yet I have not heard your brilliant advice on what these schools need to do to remain open. I'm disappointed.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If neither of you can come up with a solution, and nobody in the state college system has come up with a solution, doesn't that tell you something? Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

 

[thetrailboss]

You admitted that for just the next year the state is going to have to come up with $25 million. And that's for one year. So, yeah, you have set that at least for the time being the solution is up to taxes. The college has been trying to figure out for YEARS a way around that. And so far nobody has made it work. That ought to tell you something - especially as the demographics are projected to get worse.

Jesus Christ. You are going back to something I quoted THREE days ago? And even then you still DON'T get the point. If you stopped talking for two minutes and at least TRIED to read what others said then we'd have more constructive conversations.

My original point, again, for the FOURTH time now as that JEB SPAULDING SAID HE NEEDS $25 MILLION. Not my statement. My argument, which now is moot, was that EITHER WAY VSC NEEDS $25 MILLION, so find the bridge funding and take the year to regroup. But that never fits YOUR arguments so you continue to ignore it.

And if you actually READ what I said, you'd see that the VSC, as well as the Legislature, contemplate using a portion of the $1.2 BILLION THAT THE FEDS GAVE VERMONT to deal with COVID-19. That's where the conversation has gone...with the condition that reforms really happen.

While those are indeed taxes, you were once again saying that I said that the State needs to tax. I have not said that here. That was not my point. Don't spin what I say.

You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

 

[thetrailboss]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If neither of you can come up with a solution, and nobody in the state college system has come up with a solution, doesn't that tell you something? Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

You think that a decades-long issue is solved by one person in six days?

 

[VTKilarney]

You think that a decades-long issue is solved by one person in six days?

No. A decades long issue that nobody has come remotely close to solving is what it is. People with just a little bit of common sense can see that.

 

[VTKilarney]

Jesus Christ. You are going back to something I quoted THREE days ago? And even then you still DON'T get the point. If you stopped talking for two minutes and at least TRIED to read what others said then we'd have more constructive conversations.

My original point, again, for the FOURTH time now as that JEB SPAULDING SAID HE NEEDS $25 MILLION. Not my statement. My argument, which now is moot, was that EITHER WAY VSC NEEDS $25 MILLION, so find the bridge funding and take the year to regroup. But that never fits YOUR arguments so you continue to ignore it.

And if you actually READ what I said, you'd see that the VSC, as well as the Legislature, contemplate using a portion of the $1.2 BILLION THAT THE FEDS GAVE VERMONT to deal with COVID-19. That's where the conversation has gone...with the condition that reforms really happen.

While those are indeed taxes, you were once again saying that I said that the State needs to tax. I have not said that here. That was not my point. Don't spin what I say.

You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

You are honestly embarrassing yourself now. I have explained how your argument that they might as well spend $25 million to go one more year makes no sense. In order for it to make sense the cost of closing - or keeping open the school - would have to be zero dollars. Anything more than that is a complete waste of money. If you don't understand it, so be it.

As for the COVID-19 money, you do understand that the feds did not earmark it for the college, right? So if it is flushed down the college drain it will most definitely cost state taxpayers money. That's an incredibly simple concept to grasp.

 

[thetrailboss]

You are honestly embarrassing yourself now. I have explained how your argument that they might as well spend $25 million to go one more year makes no sense. In order for it to make sense the cost of closing - or keeping open the school - would have to be zero dollars. Anything more than that is a complete waste of money. If you don't understand it, so be it.

As for the COVID-19 money, you do understand that the feds did not earmark it for the college, right? So if it is flushed down the college drain it will most definitely cost state taxpayers money. That's an incredibly simple concept to grasp.

I see you're going for a fifth time. And still making up new arguments on both sides. Honestly, it is fucking weird. Don't you have a family to spend time with rather than fill pages upon pages of ranting in here?

And as to the COVID-19 money, as I said, the Vermont Senate discussed that the feds gave them the $1.2 billion and that the Senate is deciding how to spend it. And, as I said, their condition is that there be actual reform. Whether it works or not is for another day. That's where you have moved. I merely repeated where things were with the process. You just are looking to spin them into an argument for something to do.

 

[VTKilarney]

Don't you have a family to spend time with rather than fill pages upon pages of ranting in here?

Ah, the ad hominem attack. The calling card of a person who has no substantive argument.

 

[thetrailboss]

Ah, the ad hominem attack. The calling card of a person who has no substantive argument.

Because again I DON'T want to argue with you. Frankly, nobody does. If you cared to look you'd see that it's pretty much just you and AR talking now. I've got other things to do than have you try to argue with me.

 

[VTKilarney]

Because again I DON'T want to argue with you. Frankly, nobody does. If you cared to look you'd see that it's pretty much just you and AR talking now. I've got other things to do than have you try to argue with me.

Nobody is arguing with anybody. That's your problem. You see genuine debate and the exchange of differing ideas as "argument." That's the calling card of someone who doesn't believe they have facts in support of their position. Kind of like throwing out ad hominem attacks. If the debate offends your sensibilities, please for your own sake step aside. The rest of us can take it from here.

 

[thetrailboss]

Nobody is arguing with anybody. That's your problem. You see genuine debate as "argument." That's the calling card of someone who doesn't believe they have facts in support of their position. Kind of like throwing out ad hominem attacks. If the debate offends your sensibilities, please for your own sake step aside.

And you just proved my point.

Anything else?

 

[VTKilarney]

I will await someone who has an actual plan to stem the hemorrhaging of millions of dollars per year. That will be much more persuasive than just throwing out ad hominem attacks and memes all while complaining about "arguing.". As of now all I hear are wishes as the school continues to bleed money. I am looking forward to something with actual substance.

In the meantime I will leave you with a Scottish proverb:

If wishes were horses then beggars would ride,
If turnips were swords I’d have one by my side.
If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans
There would be no need for tinker’s hands!


All the best.

 

[dblskifanatic]

SNHU has the benefit of having an online enrollment of 87,000 students vs 4,000 on campus. So, that's not really a good apples to apples comparison with NVU. SNHU could however serve as a model for NVU. It's taken many years to build that online enrollment at SNHU, so it wouldn't happen for NVU overnight .

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