Comparing Cannon with Whiteface

[MadMadWorld]

Correct, but that's primarily what this entire conversation has been about. The fact that Whiteface has very little beginner terrain, and what there is can be fairly steep (relatively speaking of course) and even "intermediate'ish" in spots. And that some of their intermediate trails are closer to legitimate black diamonds (at least in spots), or bogus black diamonds at others.

Again I'm going to use my intermediate gf as an example here:

My gf skis ALL the intermediates at Jay Peak
My gf skis ALL the intermediates at Sugarbush
My gf skis ALL the intermediates at Smuggler's Notch
My gf skis ALL the intermediates at Gore
My gf skis ALL the intermediates at Plattekill
My gf skis ALL the intermediates in the Poconos

Yet last season, my gf HIKED down a steep "intermediate" at Whiteface with Galapagos Island tortoise moguls that was clearly really a black diamond, and that some resorts would fraudulently even (falsely) claim to be a double black diamond. Another time I felt bad (really bad), but this was something I'd never seen in my life, an intermediate trail with huge moguls and solid steepness.

The conversation gets WAY more subjective once you start talking solely about the black diamond terrain, but if you wanted to extend the conversation there, I dont agree that Stowe is more difficult than Whiteface. . And IMO, Smuggs has the most difficult on-map trail I've skied in the entire east, but yet I wouldnt rank Smuggs' black diamond trails (except for that one) as being harder than either Stowe or Whiteface.

You contradict yourself in the last few sentences. I really don't follow your logic at all here.

 

[BenedictGomez]

You contradict yourself in the last few sentences. I really don't follow your logic at all here.

No I dont.

One trail does not an entire resort's degree of difficulty make.

While Liftline at Smuggler's Notch might be the hardest trail I believe I've seen in the east (IMO), it's portfolio of black diamond terrain does not match that of Stowe or Whiteface. Subjective? Of course, but I think most people who've skied all 3 of those resorts numerous times would agree. And I do feel qualified to make such a statement, given I used to work at Stowe and had a Smuggler's Notch season pass for years.

 

[Savemeasammy]

This obviously calls for a ski off!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MadMadWorld]

This obviously calls for a ski off!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Always!

 

[SKidds]

Yet last season, my gf HIKED down a steep "intermediate" at Whiteface with Galapagos Island tortoise moguls that was clearly really a black diamond, and that some resorts would fraudulently even (falsely) claim to be a double black diamond. Another time I felt bad (really bad), but this was something I'd never seen in my life, an intermediate trail with huge moguls and solid steepness.

The conversation gets WAY more subjective once you start talking solely about the black diamond terrain, but if you wanted to extend the conversation there, I dont agree that Stowe is more difficult than Whiteface.

Well, that first part had to be Victoria? That can be tough, especially when bumped up (usually only half is) or "firm" (which can be often)......but I don't think it deserves a black diamond, if you look at the rating system as intended....which is relative to other trails on the mountain. Now if you wanted to argue for a universal rating system, I might be on your side. It would be useful for a skier to know that a blue at one mountain would be equivalent to a blue at another mountain. Would it be that hard to set standards? Easy enough today to measure trail pitch (degree) and width.....

As for the second part, I think the Front Four at Stowe equal or trump Skyward/Cloudspin/Lookout Below/Empire (most difficult four at WF). They are close, primarily Lookout Below....but as narrow as Empire is it doesn't have the pitch, while steep Skyward is wide and groomed, and as good as the multiple fall lines and aspects of Cloudspin are it isn't as steep. That's not to knock any of those trails, they are all great, at both mountains. While the Slides are "in bounds", hiking The Chin provides a similar sidecountry adventure. So, as for black diamond terrain, I would put WF and Stowe as equals. I do agree that the beginner and intermediate terrain at WF is tougher than at most/all other mountains.

 

[MadMadWorld]

No I dont.

One trail does not an entire resort's degree of difficulty make.

While Liftline at Smuggler's Notch might be the hardest trail I believe I've seen in the east (IMO), it's portfolio of black diamond terrain does not match that of Stowe or Whiteface. Subjective? Of course, but I think most people who've skied all 3 of those resorts numerous times would agree. And I do feel qualified to make such a statement, given I used to work at Stowe and had a Smuggler's Notch season pass for years.

So your throwing out all of Smuggs glades and Liftline. Black Hole doesn't count apparently because that's a glade too. You obviously didn't ski Smuggs very often if you think Whiteface's advanced terrain can compete with Freefall, Blackhole, Liftline, and Robin's.

 

[SKidds]

You obviously didn't ski Smuggs very often if you think Whiteface's advanced terrain can compete with Freefall, Blackhole, Liftline, and Robin's.

Those trails look great at Smuggs. Just so I have a point reference for your position, can I assume you have skied Slides 1 through 4, and the Cloudsplitter, Sugar Valley, and Rand's glades at WF?

 

[BenedictGomez]

Well, that first part had to be Victoria? That can be tough, especially when bumped up (usually only half is) or "firm" (which can be often)......but I don't think it deserves a black diamond, if you look at the rating system as intended....which is relative to other trails on the mountain. Now if you wanted to argue for a universal rating system, I might be on your side. It would be useful for a skier to know that a blue at one mountain would be equivalent to a blue at another mountain. Would it be that hard to set standards? Easy enough today to measure trail pitch (degree) and width.....

Yes, I agree with you, but that's my point.

That that "Intermediate" at Whiteface would be a black diamond anywhere else in New England.

As for the second part, I think the Front Four at Stowe equal or trump Skyward/Cloudspin/Lookout Below/Empire (most difficult four at WF). They are close, primarily Lookout Below....but as narrow as Empire is it doesn't have the pitch, while steep Skyward is wide and groomed, and as good as the multiple fall lines and aspects of Cloudspin are it isn't as steep. That's not to knock any of those trails, they are all great, at both mountains. While the Slides are "in bounds" hiking, The Chin provides a similar sidecountry adventure. So, as for black diamond terrain, I would put WF and Stowe as equals. I do agree that the beginner and intermediate terrain at WF is tougher than at most/all other mountains.

But you're really agreeing with me here as well though, because at Whiteface those trails are just "Black Diamonds", whereas at Stowe they're "Double Black Diamonds". And though they call it a "Double Black Diamond", I'd shutter to think what Stowe's "Liftline" trail would be rated at Whiteface! (National would only be a single diamond as well, perhaps possibly even Intermediate). Goat and Starr are worthy of their ratings to be sure though.

Put it this way, in terms of trail ratings, I'm unaware of anyplace else in the east that wouldn't call this a Double Black Diamond, it certainly would be at Stowe or Smuggs.

 

[BenedictGomez]

So your throwing out all of Smuggs glades and Liftline. Black Hole doesn't count apparently because that's a glade too. You obviously didn't ski Smuggs very often if you think Whiteface's advanced terrain can compete with Freefall, Blackhole, Liftline, and Robin's.

I'm not, "throwing it out", I'm just saying that it's by far Smuggs' toughest trail, and there's not a second trail even remotely as difficult at Smuggs as that. Heck, I dont even think Robin's Run or Freefall are really that difficult to be blunt. And I highly doubt you've skied at Smuggler's Notch more than I have unless you're either 25+ years older than I am or had a season's pass there for >5 years.

 

[MadMadWorld]

I'm not, "throwing it out", I'm just saying that it's by far Smuggs' toughest trail, and there's not a second trail even remotely as difficult at Smuggs as that. Heck, I dont even think Robin's Run or Freefall are really that difficult to be blunt. And I highly doubt you've skied at Smuggler's Notch more than I have unless you're either 25+ years older than I am or had a season's pass there for >5 years.

You seriously think Lookout Below is more difficult than Robin's? I think you've lost it

 

[SKidds]

I hear ya, BG. You are spot on regarding Lookout Below. It is very much the equivalent of the double black front four at Stowe. Yes, in the context of 'universal rating' I guess I am agreeing with you. Someday maybe, but a universal system we don't have. As for WF, the Slides, while at times (read: perfect conditions) can be relatively "easy", often can be a Smuggs Liftline-esque huck fest, and set the WF bar for double black that Lookout Below can't reach. All I'm trying to say, I guess, is that if you throw out map ratings, WF and Stowe have similar difficulty level in their expert terrain. Probaby Smuggs as well, but I haven't skied there. Of course throwing out trail ratings does nothing for a skier unfamiliar with a mountain, which is your whole (very good) point. While a universal trail rating system would be great for skiers, I doubt mountains would ever agree to one....

 

[Smellytele]

Yes, I agree with you, but that's my point.

That that "Intermediate" at Whiteface would be a black diamond anywhere else in New England.



But you're really agreeing with me here as well though, because at Whiteface those trails are just "Black Diamonds", whereas at Stowe they're "Double Black Diamonds". And though they call it a "Double Black Diamond", I'd shutter to think what Stowe's "Liftline" trail would be rated at Whiteface! (National would only be a single diamond as well, perhaps possibly even Intermediate). Goat and Starr are worthy of their ratings to be sure though.

Put it this way, in terms of trail ratings, I'm unaware of anyplace else in the east that wouldn't call this a Double Black Diamond, it certainly would be at Stowe or Smuggs.

Not so sure I am buying all this. I have ski National when the bumps on it were so deep and steep that when we got to the bottom our ski pants pockets were full of snow. I have skied this trail at Whiteface with my 9 year old. While I agree it was a challenge National with those bumps was twice as hard and 3 times as tiring.

 

[AdironRider]

The VT homers are never going to agree that Whiteface has better terrain. IF Whiteface got the snow Stowe does, it wouldn't even be a debate, but they don't.

Stowe has better glades, both on and off map, otherwise Whiteface's terrain is superior. Consider them trails or not, but Stowe does it better. Slides are better terrain than the chin, but snowfall really shows there.

 

[abc]

I thought this thread is about Cannon vs WF.

What's Stowe got anything to do with it???

 

[jimk]

I thought this thread is about Cannon vs WF.

What's Stowe got anything to do with it???

It sort of got into a discusssion of what makes a challenging trail.

I've skied at all the places mentioned, but not that much and spread over many years and not always catching the best terrain. It's funny how once you successfully ski a difficult trail it doesn't seem so steep anymore.:wink: Lookout Below had pretty friendly snow the day we skied it recently at Whiteface and I didn't find the run that intimidating. The mystery of the unknown gets me. I haven't skied The Slides or Tramline at Cannon or Liftline at Stowe or the steepest glades at Smuggs and found all those impressively gnarly from a chairlift observer's point of view.:razz:
I think that the less manicured grooming (due maybe as much from exposure/weather rather than any groomer deficiencies) at WF and Cannon adds an extra difficulty factor across their entire range of terrain. FWIW, I think Stowe has the greatest amount of very challenging terrain in the East, but then I haven't skied some of Stowe's best stuff so maybe my opinion would soften if I skied it more? But I don't think so

 

[SIKSKIER]

Put it this way, in terms of trail ratings, I'm unaware of anyplace else in the east that wouldn't call this a Double Black Diamond, it certainly would be at Stowe or Smuggs.

Since this is a supposed to be a Cannon thread the easy answer is Cannon.They have no trails rated double and never will.Ski Tramline and tell me that wouldn't ne a double pretty much anywhre else.

 

[Savemeasammy]

Tramline is legit. I put it just behind liftline at Smuggs. I haven't skied whiteface, but it looks worthy of a visit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MadMadWorld]

Yes, I agree with you, but that's my point.

That that "Intermediate" at Whiteface would be a black diamond anywhere else in New England.



But you're really agreeing with me here as well though, because at Whiteface those trails are just "Black Diamonds", whereas at Stowe they're "Double Black Diamonds". And though they call it a "Double Black Diamond", I'd shutter to think what Stowe's "Liftline" trail would be rated at Whiteface! (National would only be a single diamond as well, perhaps possibly even Intermediate). Goat and Starr are worthy of their ratings to be sure though.

Put it this way, in terms of trail ratings, I'm unaware of anyplace else in the east that wouldn't call this a Double Black Diamond, it certainly would be at Stowe or Smuggs.

Well there are plenty of mountains that don't use a double diamond designation at all....so I would say Jay, MRG, Cannon, and Wildcat.

 

[ceo]

I was once riding up a lift at Cannon with someone who talked about having had to explain to his daughters that just because they were allowed to ski black diamonds but not double blacks at (IIRC) Sunday River, that didn't mean they were allowed to ski Kinsman Glade and Tramline, because Cannon doesn't use the double-black rating. (Which I think they should mention on the trail map, honestly.)

I've never been to Whiteface, but if they're as lousy in the lower-intermediate terrain department as others have reported, that's another thing it has in common with Cannon. I speak as someone who went through that stage there and is bring his son through it there now.

 

[MadMadWorld]

I was once riding up a lift at Cannon with someone who talked about having had to explain to his daughters that just because they were allowed to ski black diamonds but not double blacks at (IIRC) Sunday River, that didn't mean they were allowed to ski Kinsman Glade and Tramline, because Cannon doesn't use the double-black rating. (Which I think they should mention on the trail map, honestly.)

I've never been to Whiteface, but if they're as lousy in the lower-intermediate terrain department as others have reported, that's another thing it has in common with Cannon. I speak as someone who went through that stage there and is bring his son through it there now.

They should mention it but I prefer the single diamond system. It makes people think twice before going on trails that are above their ability level. Riding up the trams and seeing Face Chutes at Jay or Tramline at Cannon and realizing those are single diamonds definitely makes people cautious about taking any of the "expert" trails.