Ice Ability - Ski v. Technique

[goldsbar]

I wish I never had to deal with ice, but... At times, I'll see people carving across ice like a carve across PP. No matter what I try (shorter turns, diffent weighting, different ski angulation, etc.), my skis will generally skid across the slick stuff. So the question is, is there some secret ice technique I'm missing or are some skis just that much better than others?

A word about myself to help your answers. I've been skiing for years and ski just about everything in all types of conditions (groomers, trees, bumps, etc.). I have atomic beta ride 9.22s 180cm (I'm 5'10 150 lbs) which I sharpen regularly using a 1 degree offset on both the base & side edge. I've tried straight 90 degree on both edges in the past. Thanks!

 

[57stevey]

Well, FWIW I'm on that ski (at 170cm for 165#) and the spec calls for 3-degree side, 1-degree base... mine hold well for mid-fats but won't be mistaken for GS skis. Having said that, I find that sometimes I can carve the ice but sometimes not... which leads me to believe it must be me that's failing and not the skis.

 

[salida]

Well, Well, I've skied those skis for a long time now in a 170, and got the same results. I could sometimes carve the ice and sometimes not. I demoed a bunch of other mid fats and found that they always ripped the ice up. Just shredded it compared to my old atomics. I ended up getting new skis (Elan m12 fusion 176) and have really enjoyed them because they did all the things my old atmoics did, but they are also better on ice and they are more manuverable in the bumps.

 

[goldsbar]

Salida - Interesting that you're 15 lbs more than me but ski 10 cm shorter. A couple of people have told me that I should have went with the 170's. Not my fault - I went with the advice of my local ski shop (Pelican). I think they go to much by height and not enough by weight. I can't even use some sort of leverage argument as I have a fairly short inseem for my height.

Steve - just curios, did you demo the K2 XP Pros? I tried these a couple of weeks ago and loved them. Problem is, I tried them mostly on perfect condition groomers and some limited rock hard bumps so I don't know about their overall performance.

 

[GadgetRick]

Great question

Wish I knew the answer! Being an East Coastie I'm used to skiing ice, er ah, hardpack, er ah, loud powder. But I don't know of any particular ski or technique for skiing it. Just ski it fast and often!

 

[57stevey]

Goldsbar - no XP's, sorry. Best grip I found so far was 2004 Head IM75 chip (by far.) Fischers were also very good, RX-8, RX-6, S-400.

Haven't gotten to try any Elans but have heard good things about the 662 as well as Salida's M12's.

 

[riverc0il]

first off, usually it's scraped, not ice. ice is very rare and i've never seen any one hold an edge on true ice. sorry, just a little pet pieve of mine... :wink:

type of ski will have something to do with ability to turn on the scraped stuff. most likely the sidecut and length and composition of the ski (?? maybe) would come into play i'm gonna guess. any top of the line GS ski should be doable for carving on scraped.

i used to be good at carving scraped as i have a racing background and training. lately though, i'm not so good at it because my technique has been focused on natural snow conditions and less use of the edge and angulation. but when i feel a little slipage under my feet on the scraped, i revert back to my race training and remind myself of the following:

square those shoulders up to the fall line and angulate the legs so you're edges are actually biting into the snow instead of sliding across it. i guess that last part is hard to describe, so i'd say just watch a world cup GS race and look at their legs, knees, and shoulders. of course, you don't need the extreme angle for recreational skiing... but i really learned what people meant when they used terms like angulation by watching the pros on TV.

 

[noreaster]

Once you initiate a new turn you must start to carve that turn early with no slipping and sliding. The earlier you initiate the transition to the new downhill ski the easier you can plant the edge and start to carve on ice. Once you start to slide on the ice and lose the edge its all over and you may as well start a new turn. Its normal to loose the edge and start to slide once and a while. Just don’t do this 3 turns in a row. :lol:

Of course the best trick is to not turn on ice. Ski across the ice. When you get to a place where there is at least a little bit of snow, then make your turn.

Its a bit later now in the season so we probably need to discuss slush skiing.

 

[Bumpsis]

As alreday mentioned, skiing (edging, turning) on true ice, "blue ice" is something close to impossible. Majority of us mortals can hope to maybe get one or two edge sets and then just enjoy the slide.
On slicked off hard pack, what seems to work best for me is a series of very quick and forceful jumps, so you're off the edge before you actually start to slide. Lot's of unweighing and you change directions of your skis mostly in air. Easier said than done.
As to what type of skis work best - it's really the skier not the skis.
I still use my "straight skis" (K2 Kevlar) every now and then, especially in the bumps because they're so much swifter than my shaped ones, and on ice they're all the same.

 

[57stevey]

Hmmm... lately I've been using the opposite approach, no sudden moves, trying to make very round, fully completed turns. It works well up to a certain level of steepness. After that, well, I have pretty good sideslipping skills when required.

I also find that "scraped" and "icy" are two different conditions, at least for me. "Icy" being, well, say this Feb's Middle Cannon with a thin layer of snow over a fairly transparent surface. "Scraped" being more like a featureless expanse of white that looks edgeable but isn't... like the troughs of moguls, or any high-snowboard traffic run late in the day. I actually have more trouble with what I call "scraped" than with "icy."

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

I wish I never had to deal with ice, but... At times, I'll see people carving across ice like a carve across PP. No matter what I try (shorter turns, diffent weighting, different ski angulation, etc.), my skis will generally skid across the slick stuff. So the question is, is there some secret ice technique I'm missing or are some skis just that much better than others?

A word about myself to help your answers. I've been skiing for years and ski just about everything in all types of conditions (groomers, trees, bumps, etc.). I have atomic beta ride 9.22s 180cm (I'm 5'10 150 lbs) which I sharpen regularly using a 1 degree offset on both the base & side edge. I've tried straight 90 degree on both edges in the past. Thanks!

All atomics should have a 1°base and a 3°side...you can get away with a 2°side.

 

[Starter Jackets Rule!]

Salida - Interesting that you're 15 lbs more than me but ski 10 cm shorter. A couple of people have told me that I should have went with the 170's. Not my fault - I went with the advice of my local ski shop (Pelican). I think they go to much by height and not enough by weight. I can't even use some sort of leverage argument as I have a fairly short inseem for my height.

Steve - just curios, did you demo the K2 XP Pros? I tried these a couple of weeks ago and loved them. Problem is, I tried them mostly on perfect condition groomers and some limited rock hard bumps so I don't know about their overall performance.

" I went with the advice of my local ski shop (Pelican). " Yikes!
me no like them!

 

[ALLSKIING]

Bump

 

[SkiDog]

As alreday mentioned, skiing (edging, turning) on true ice, "blue ice" is something close to impossible. Majority of us mortals can hope to maybe get one or two edge sets and then just enjoy the slide.

But TJ Burke made it look soo easy in Aspen Ski Extreme when he went skiing down the icefall to escape ski patrol...

You mean you guys can't do that?

Weird...

M

 

[SkiDog]

Salida - Interesting that you're 15 lbs more than me but ski 10 cm shorter. A couple of people have told me that I should have went with the 170's. Not my fault - I went with the advice of my local ski shop (Pelican). I think they go to much by height and not enough by weight. I can't even use some sort of leverage argument as I have a fairly short inseem for my height.

Steve - just curios, did you demo the K2 XP Pros? I tried these a couple of weeks ago and loved them. Problem is, I tried them mostly on perfect condition groomers and some limited rock hard bumps so I don't know about their overall performance.

" I went with the advice of my local ski shop (Pelican). " Yikes!
me no like them!

I dont like them either...maybe..MAYBE to pick up a quick pair of socks or something, but otherwise..I stay away....I do my OWN research then go make my purchase...I don't like being "sold" something. I ususally know what I want, so I avoid inexperienced salespeople..

M

 

[JimG.]

Your choice of ski has very little impact on your ability to carve on true ice (that shiny, rock hard, blue or clear stuff). Sure, a stiffer ski will work better on ice than a soft ski, but it won't make you a good "ice" skier.

Good ice technique is a combination of tactics and line choice, the ability to control edge angles and "feather" edge pressure, good fluid movement without hesitations between turns, and old fashioned balls.

 

[Vano]

I also agree with the statement that true ice is not skiable. I am sure no human on conventional (even racing) skis can hold edge consistently and ski over true ice in control. I personally witnessed a member of the Austrian ski team wipe out while doing a GS training run down the mountain. Once he gathered himself he complained to the run was 'too icy' and it was very difficult to hold edge. The training was stopped shortly after and the run was opened to the public to ski. I skied it 30 minutes or so after the run was deemed 'too icy' by an Olympic GS skier and the way I would classify it was very very scraped hard snow - there was no actual ice anywhere.

When i see true ice, i will avoid it at all costs or, if I can't will straightline overe the ice patch or do a 'rail slide' sideways move.

Suprisingly enough, the scariest 'ice' skiing i have ever done was last year in Vail. The snow conditions were bad and there was a steep black trail that was completely smooth and hard scraped packed snow. I was skiing on my fat skis (95mm under foot). I carefully entered sideways, the edges did not hold AT ALL and i started sliding sideways. I did a sideways rail slide for about 10 seconds straight 2/3s down the trail at which point i was going way faster than one wants to be going sideways. I eventually regained control when the slope flattened out a bit and the snow got softer. I have never experienced anything like that on the east coast.

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

1st mistake is taking the advise of the ski shop (unless they are excellent) but in most cases they are some high school morons working there for free tshirts and dont know a thing about tuning...I had an all out argument with my shop as the tuner said the bases were flat as I was running a true bar down the ski with light clearly showing under it,......after that the owner came over and asked if i wanted a job...atomics tune at 1 and 3 degrees..I dont trust most shops

 

[dmc]

I don't even try and turn on true ice... I just point it straight and look for a patch to check on...

 

[ctenidae]

I usually just break out the ice pick and gin.