Enough talk about EB-5. Let's talk about Jay Peak!
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Jay Peak Conceptual Development Plan (2011-2016)
- Thread starter JPTracker
- Start date
Magog Fishy
New member
Steve,
Didn’t think the other day to ask/get an update on the most obvious of questions. 6-pack still a go for next season (I think that is what you said before)? How about timing on existing trails improvements and realignments? Lastly, current West Bowl timing -- all permitted; funding in place; all lifts/trails at once, or phased?
Hopefully the snow gods are being good to you.
Thanks.
This from a newsletter just received:
This does not sound like "zero chance that Andre's/BP will be touched". It sounds more like the beginning of the trail shown on the plan.
Steve: Can you elaborate on these changes.
BigJay
New member
Ouch!
Magog Fishy
New member
Could they be trying to move the beginning of the cross-over trail (on the conceptual development plan) farther up slope -- perhaps it will be more a chute/glade than a trail? This might not be a bad thing as it could create some long glades/chutes to the West Bowl on the other side of Andre’s, although beginners/intermediates wouldn’t be able to handle them. Perhaps the beginner/intermediate crossover trail will be where BP/Andre’s exit is. Remember they got a few stream crossings they have to deal with.
Also the Long Trail land at the top of BP/Andre’s is owned by the VT Dept of Forest and Park, and then it switches to the land they conveyed last year to the Green Mountain Club. On the GMC land they need the buffer from the Long Trail, whereas on the State owned land they don’t (after all BP/Andre’s already abuts it). JPR could be trying to thread a tight needle, without touching BP/Andre’s. It could work out nicely.
Also the Long Trail land at the top of BP/Andre’s is owned by the VT Dept of Forest and Park, and then it switches to the land they conveyed last year to the Green Mountain Club. On the GMC land they need the buffer from the Long Trail, whereas on the State owned land they don’t (after all BP/Andre’s already abuts it). JPR could be trying to thread a tight needle, without touching BP/Andre’s. It could work out nicely.
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riverc0il
New member
While I have no idea what the stated improvements will be, I have heard from SW himself in very straight shooting wording that BPG and BBPG would not be touched as part of the West Bowl expansion. Considering how far off West Bowl currently is, I can't see how it could possibly be related.
Sick Bird Rider
Member
I was a witness to what rivercOil reports. The exact wording from SW when asked about a WB access trail through BP and Andre's was "No way." He also reported asking Bill Stenger the same question and Bill's reply was "not in a million years." So for now, we assume that it was a badly drawn line on map. Theoretically. We hope.
I believe you that he said that but I would still like to know what they mean by
"enhance the entry to and exit from Beaver Pond Glades and Andre's Paradise. This work will give you better access to some new "deep snow" chutes heading toward the West Bowl"
which came directly from a newsletter I received in an article that I think was written by Walter Elandor.
Magog Fishy
New member
WB long ways off, hmm...where have I heard that before :roll:. I was thinking of betting a case of beer with someone for 2014/15 season or 2015/16 season for beginning of WB expansion, but maybe I will just save my money. I know SBR/Riv might be sworn to some WB secrecy :wink: -- although I doubt anyone really knows when it will happen.
Assuming PL gets the EB extension, I was thinking:
Hoping weather will cooperate for this Saturday – skiing in the rain can really suck.
Assuming PL gets the EB extension, I was thinking:
- 2011/12 – Waterpark/Hotel Jay completion; beginning of Phase III EB5 (100 townhome rental units :blink: where the short-cut road is; they want to put first 17 modular units -- might actually be 34 units -- in this Summer if they get the permitting completed; if they start this, it would presumably mean fait accompli for State Side lodge replacement since they would need the job creation as part of the Phase III investment program – I don’t think just the rental units alone would cover the job creation)
- 2012/13 – 6-pack, plus lift/trail realignments; continuance of adding the 100 EB5 townhomes where the short-cut road is
- 2013/14 – State Side lodge (cough, cough) modifications are complete???? Maybe :idea: they’ll do something similar to Saddleback’s lodge, which would be cool. :-D
- 2014/15 – beginning of West Bowl terrain expansion????
Hoping weather will cooperate for this Saturday – skiing in the rain can really suck.
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Sick Bird Rider
Member
That is a good question, JPT. I have no clue. "Enhance" could mean anything from a little trail marking to stairs to a lift. Something like this would certainly help the old farts like me :-?:
riverc0il
New member
The feeling I got was that they wanted to finish up all of the planned improvements at the current area proper before finalizing plans for West Bowl.
Magog Fishy
New member
Thanks for the 411. JPR is taking a prudent approach to the West Bowl, which is certainly wise considering how many ski areas have failed/gone bankrupt before after undergoing major expansion.
BTW, hope the sentence about you/SBR didn't come off the wrong way -- why I put the wink in there, although it still occured to me after the fact it could be taken the wrong way.
riverc0il
New member
Not taken the wrong way at all. I think another issue is that the West Bowl is going to cost JPR with less return. At least until the current development is built out. The Ice Rink is making revenue. The Tram House, new Hotel Jay, and Waterpark will all make revenue. The on mountain F&B is definitely making revenue. There is talk of stuff going in stateside that will make revenue. Is West Bowl really going to bring in that many new skier visits? Doubtful. Are they going to sell more real estate over there? Maybe, but its not like they don't already have existing condos up for sale already. I think their ROI on West Bowl is going to be a lot less than the other stuff they are doing now. And while the lift upgrades certainly are not bringing in the ROI, they really don't have much choice. That is all my own interpretation of the situation, nothing I have heard specifically. It just makes sense to focus on enhancements with the highest and most immediate ROI first and the other stuff second.
I agree with your time line. The water park and Hotel Jay are on schedule for opening next winter. They have announced the new lifts for next summer and they are currently talking to the Jay Zoning Board about the housing along the short cut road.
What is governing a lot of the time line is the fact that they are not allowed to disturb too much ground at one time. Last year they had to break ground on the latest town houses before the hotel because after the hotel broke ground they would not have been able to break ground for the town houses.
On another note this summer they will be relocating the power lines off power line in preparation for the new lifts. There was some discussion that when this was done they would put these lines underground. At the same time they are thinking about running a water and sewer line up to the tram house. One of the things holding back any development of the tram house is that in winter the water is brought up by the tram and the septic field up their is very limited. The cost of doing this can not be justified by looking at the Tram House alone but what it will do for the overall experience at Jay.
riverc0il
New member
So THAT is what that tub under the looker's left tram is for! I've always wondered.
Yup. That's also why the bathrooms are closed sometimes. If they don't bring up enough water for them.
The other funny thing about the Tram House is the soda machine inside. It's had an out of order sign on it for years but the reason its out of order is that no one wants to bring up any thing to fill it with. It's actually just empty not out of order.
riverc0il
New member
It is amazing how much money they are dumping into the base area but the summit building still remains a total pit. Which is amazing compared to how much of a cool spot the summit building is at Cannon. I suppose the big difference is Cannon has multiple lifts at the summit, not just the Tram, and thus more demand for summit services.
I didn't go in last year, have the bathrooms been fixed up yet? I remember a year or two ago, there were more urinals/toilets not working than actually usable one.
The only thing fixed inside is the ceiling. They replaced all the molded ceiling sheetrock. Nothing changes in the bathrooms. The toilets are minimal in there again because of the leach field is so small. They are replacing the windows and putting vinal siding on the outside but the inside remains unchanged. I put this in line with Killington's Peak Lodge. Maybe they will take their lead and fix up the place. Don't forget the base area is all EB5 money were the Tram House is on State land so they have to use investor money for that.
What would be nice is if they put in the water and sewer they could actually put in a restaurant in there served by the Tram and even serve diner up there. They wouldn't make money on the restaurant per se but it would be a great draw to bring people into the resort, especially off season.
Magog Fishy
New member
I had wondered what that tub was for also. I knew they took water up to the Tram House every morning, but didn't realize that is where they put it.
I have never been inside the building -- I guess at some point I should check it out. Didn't this past Valentine’s Day JPR run a contest in which the winner would stay the night up in the Tram House. I'm guessing they must have fixed up the apartment up there. Would be a bit freaky to spend a night up there during a blizzard!
I was thinking this past Friday when I was up at Jay that the Tram Side lodge/IR replacement might come before West Bowl.
Magog Fishy
New member
4/22 trip run down
BTW, skied Jay this past Friday – just an amazing day. I probably should do a trip report to give Jay some loving for staying open so late, but instead will give a quick run-down here. Major kudos to Jay for running all lifts on Fri. – decent crowd (you could really tell there were a lot of Quebec day trippers), lifts were just about ski on all morning (minute wait at most), although the Tram started to get a line in the early afternoon. About 3” of fresh snow had fallen overnight – when I got up to Jay early Thursday evening, it just started dumping (snow line was probably about 1,200’ to 1,300’).
Took Tram up first run, and was trying to figure out what to do – if Green Beret was open, would have done that. Headed down Northway and was thinking BP/Andrea’s but there was a giant group of teenagers hiking-up – some student group staying at JPR. Some punk leader thought he was ski patrol and yelled at me to slow down (I was already going nearly as slow as a turtle). I took one look down Poma and saw some nice powder and bumps with only a few tracks, and said F them and I headed down Poma – big mistake as it was 3” of sugary fluff on top of bullet-proof ice-o-guls; I bailed 3/4 of the ways down and just ripped it up on Ullr’s. After that decided to test out some of the mid-mountain low/moderate glades thinking they might not have frozen-up as solid as some steeper glade up top, and if they did at least it would not be too dangerous – skied Buckaroo, Buck Woods, Mid/Lower Everglade, Expo Glade, North Glade and Hell’s Woods. Everything skied well – Buckaroo and Buck was wall-to-wall coverage, but you could tell those two were starting to get a little thin; Expo Glade had a bunch of pow at the entrance that was starting to get clumpy late morning. I pretty much just skied the Freezer – I wasted one run over to the Jet (via Hell's) late morning to see how the snow pack was on the Jet, but State Side was getting slushy real fast; ripped some runs down Green Mountain Boys and Upper Exhibition; even Upper Goat was skiing real well. Legs were getting tired fast – I didn’t put any wax on my skis. My last run down was North Glade (thought about BP/Andea’s or Everglade from the top but didn’t want to deal with the slushy run out), which at about 1:45ish was still skiable (not too manky). Overall a great, mellow day – couldn’t ask for a better day of skiing on April 22.
On Saturday I did not ski but drove-up to the mountain about 11:15ish. Windy, drizzle, and raw as hell – just the Jet was running; a lot less cars in the lot than Friday. I walked up to use the bathroom in the basement of Tram Side Lodge, and even Bill was pulling out.
Jay is still in great shape – should be able to run the Tram or Freezer for another week or two, although they might start to lose Taxi and Bonnie chair. I am thinking with the warm weather this week, they might lose 15 trails – I didn’t see any bare spots on Trams Side other than on Flash (even Bushwacker was wall- to wall); Jet side looked wall-to-wall; Bonnie trails and base was hurting by far the most and had a fair amount of bare spots. I’m thinking JPR will call it quits on the 8th even though they probably could go until the 15th (I’m not sure if Bill wants to play the last to close game yet).
BTW, skied Jay this past Friday – just an amazing day. I probably should do a trip report to give Jay some loving for staying open so late, but instead will give a quick run-down here. Major kudos to Jay for running all lifts on Fri. – decent crowd (you could really tell there were a lot of Quebec day trippers), lifts were just about ski on all morning (minute wait at most), although the Tram started to get a line in the early afternoon. About 3” of fresh snow had fallen overnight – when I got up to Jay early Thursday evening, it just started dumping (snow line was probably about 1,200’ to 1,300’).
Took Tram up first run, and was trying to figure out what to do – if Green Beret was open, would have done that. Headed down Northway and was thinking BP/Andrea’s but there was a giant group of teenagers hiking-up – some student group staying at JPR. Some punk leader thought he was ski patrol and yelled at me to slow down (I was already going nearly as slow as a turtle). I took one look down Poma and saw some nice powder and bumps with only a few tracks, and said F them and I headed down Poma – big mistake as it was 3” of sugary fluff on top of bullet-proof ice-o-guls; I bailed 3/4 of the ways down and just ripped it up on Ullr’s. After that decided to test out some of the mid-mountain low/moderate glades thinking they might not have frozen-up as solid as some steeper glade up top, and if they did at least it would not be too dangerous – skied Buckaroo, Buck Woods, Mid/Lower Everglade, Expo Glade, North Glade and Hell’s Woods. Everything skied well – Buckaroo and Buck was wall-to-wall coverage, but you could tell those two were starting to get a little thin; Expo Glade had a bunch of pow at the entrance that was starting to get clumpy late morning. I pretty much just skied the Freezer – I wasted one run over to the Jet (via Hell's) late morning to see how the snow pack was on the Jet, but State Side was getting slushy real fast; ripped some runs down Green Mountain Boys and Upper Exhibition; even Upper Goat was skiing real well. Legs were getting tired fast – I didn’t put any wax on my skis. My last run down was North Glade (thought about BP/Andea’s or Everglade from the top but didn’t want to deal with the slushy run out), which at about 1:45ish was still skiable (not too manky). Overall a great, mellow day – couldn’t ask for a better day of skiing on April 22.
On Saturday I did not ski but drove-up to the mountain about 11:15ish. Windy, drizzle, and raw as hell – just the Jet was running; a lot less cars in the lot than Friday. I walked up to use the bathroom in the basement of Tram Side Lodge, and even Bill was pulling out.
Jay is still in great shape – should be able to run the Tram or Freezer for another week or two, although they might start to lose Taxi and Bonnie chair. I am thinking with the warm weather this week, they might lose 15 trails – I didn’t see any bare spots on Trams Side other than on Flash (even Bushwacker was wall- to wall); Jet side looked wall-to-wall; Bonnie trails and base was hurting by far the most and had a fair amount of bare spots. I’m thinking JPR will call it quits on the 8th even though they probably could go until the 15th (I’m not sure if Bill wants to play the last to close game yet).
