skinning Mt Ellen

[ts01]

Now that lifts have closed, what is the policy (if any) on skinning or hiking up Mt Ellen?

Worth the effort next week midweek? I.e., decent skiing to be had?

We'll be riding the lifts at Lincoln Peak for a couple of days but this could be a fun adventure.

Thanks. Pls PM if you'd rather not post.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

you're allowed because it's on National Forest service land..I hiked Sugarbush north/Mount Ellen back in college..not a bad hike due to lots of zigzaggy Blue trails to get you to the summit..post a photo TR for stoke!!!!

 

[ts01]

Thanks GSS.

I'd be interested to hear from any Sugarbush locals what to expect on the downhill. Recent photos before they closed look good. Our choice is basically between skinning up Mt Ellen, riding the lifts a 3d day at Lincoln, or at Mad River if they're still open (looks dicey). Skinning would be new to us but this seems like like a great place to try it out.

 

[thetrailboss]

you're allowed because it's on National Forest service land..

Wrong. Most of Ellen lies on private land. Only the summit area is in the GMNF (a small triangle that runs off the summit, down Rim Run to the North Ridge Express summit terminal area, and south along Rim Run).

Lincoln Peak, on the other hand, lies mainly in the GMNF with only portions of the base area being private.

Even if Ellen was public land, IIRC the way the lease reads SB can restrict access to those who pay to use the ski trails and the "services" they provide (snowmaking, grooming).

I think we've had this discussion before :blink:

 

[ts01]

OK, sorry for my fail at searching.

 

[thetrailboss]

OK, sorry for my fail at searching.

No fail at all. It is just a perennial topic of conversation and IIRC I had the same discussion regarding ME NOT being on GMNF land with GSS before.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

There is a map somewhere in the public domain that shows you the actual line (it's in the Act 250 database somewhere). But it's only 58.8 acres of USFS on the Summit of Ellen. The remaining acreage is all private dirt, and should be treated as such.

As TB mentioned, the special use permit (I believe they actually call them "Ski Area Permits" now) gives Summit Ventures the latitude to restrict access to the property, even if it is "public." If they say no hiking at Mt. Ellen, it is trespassing. If they say no hiking at Lincoln Peak, that is within the legal structure of their USFS permit.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

So JD was tresspassing???

 

[BushMogulMaster]

So JD was tresspassing???

tres⋅pass
   /ˈtrɛspəs, -pæs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [tres-puhs, -pas] Show IPA
–noun
1. Law.
>a. an unlawful act causing injury to the person, property, or rights of another, committed with force or violence, actual or implied.
>b. a wrongful entry upon the lands of another.
>c. the action to recover damages for such an injury.
2. an encroachment or intrusion.
3. an offense, sin, or wrong.

Yes. See 1b and 2.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Additional clarification on trespassing:

Trespassing is a legal term that can refer to a wide variety of offenses against a person or against property. Trespassing as it relates to real estate law means entering onto land without consent of the landowner. There are both criminal and civil TRESPASS laws. Criminal trespass law is enforced by police, sheriffs, or park rangers. Civil trespass requires that the landowner initiate a private enforcement action in court to collect any damages for which the trespasser may be responsible, regardless of whether a crime has been committed. Traditionally, for either type of trespass, some level of intent is required. Thus, the trespasser must not simply unwittingly traverse another's land but must knowingly go onto the property without permission. Knowledge may be inferred when the owner tells the trespasser not to go on the land, when the land is fenced, or when a "no trespassing" sign in posted.

 

[andyzee]

Yes. See 1b and 2.

Well, 1b seems contradictory since other in this case is the public.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Well, 1b seems contradictory since other in this case is the public.

No, Andy. Mt. Ellen is private dirt. That's where JD was skinning and skiing, and is the area in question for this thread. Regardless, the USFS permit gives the company the right to restrict access to Lincoln Peak's public ground as well.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Since the OP asked, I asked and was told the "official" policy is that skinning up Mt Ellen is not allowed. I guess it depends on the ski hill as Magic has a diferent policy.
http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic14823

 

[atkinson]

A little clarification ...

The VP of Mtn Ops said that hiking at Mount Ellen is fine, just don't bring skis, boards or sleds. Presumably snowshoes, as long as they are not too slippery, should be fine.

John

 

[mondeo]

The real question here is:

Is anyone watching?

 

[andyzee]

The real question is, Isn't that just plain wrong? Public land that limits public access. What is the duration of Sugarbush's lease? Is it just ski season or throughout the year?

 

[bvibert]

The real question is, Isn't that just plain wrong? Public land that limits public access. What is the duration of Sugarbush's lease? Is it just ski season or throughout the year?

The whole right or wrong to be blocking access on leased public land thing has been beaten to death here in the past. Regardless, that's the way the lease is written. In this case it's irrelevant since most of Ellen, except for the summit, is private land.

 

[thetrailboss]

The real question is, Isn't that just plain wrong? Public land that limits public access. What is the duration of Sugarbush's lease? Is it just ski season or throughout the year?

For Mount Ellen you can access the 58 acres of summit area public land via the Long Trail or Jerusalem Trail.

For Lincoln Peak: SB leases the land. They have a special use permit with the GMNF and, in essence, have converted that portion of the GMNF to private land under that permit.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

The real question here is:

Is anyone watching?

The answer is yes.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

For Mount Ellen you can access the 58 acres of summit area public land via the Long Trail or Jerusalem Trail.

For Lincoln Peak: SB leases the land. They have a special use permit with the GMNF and, in essence, have converted that portion of the GMNF to private land under that permit.

The public acreage at Mt Ellen is operated under the same terms/permitting as Lincoln Peak, so the same concept applies.