WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[fbrissette]

Considering plenty of people in this thread, SAR, and the state police all disagree with you, dont you think it might actually be, you know, true?

Repeating it does not make it any truer. It's certainly a possibility but I doubt it's seriously rooted. The anectodal evidence of one police officer does not mean much. European SAR (who charge for rescue) don't seem to agree either.

 

[deadheadskier]

I agree with this. It reflects poorly on the responsible slack country skiers as a group. With the recent reports, I keep getting grief from family about the fact that I go skiing out of bounds on occasion. I have to keep explaining the difference between what those idiots are doing at Killington and what I do when I duck outside the boundaries or even go on a true backcountry tour.

So, if something happens to you in the BC requiring a SAR you shouldn't have to pay a rescue fee because you're experienced and cautious in the BC and not "one of those idiots at Killington" ?

 

[deadheadskier]

A couple years ago I had a sufferfest on Mount Whittier. I made it off the hill okay, but at one point I truly thought I was going to get mauled by a bear to death. Had I not made it off the hill, what do you all think should have been my bill?

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ttier-(nelsap)-Misery-tour&highlight=Whittier

$250-$500......FIVE GRAND?

Read the story. I'm clearly a gaper who had no business schussing the BC. Clearly their should be some sort of law/fine in place preventing idiots like me from attempting the crazy dangerous Mt. Whittier.

 

[BenedictGomez]

With the recent reports, I keep getting grief from family about the fact that I go skiing out of bounds on occasion.

Your family doesn't know you're from Vermont?

A couple years ago I had a sufferfest on Mount Whittier. I made it off the hill okay, but at one point I truly thought I was going to get mauled by a bear to death. Had I not made it off the hill, what do you all think should have been my bill?


$250-$500......FIVE GRAND?

I'd hope you had all the children you were going to have prior to said infraction.

 

[SnowRock]

Repeating it does not make it any truer. It's certainly a possibility but I doubt it's seriously rooted. The anectodal evidence of one police officer does not mean much. European SAR (who charge for rescue) don't seem to agree either.

While Europe makes sense to look at... you have to remember there are some pretty big differences.
1) Accessibly and popularity of SAR insurance. People here, even some experienced sort might not even know that you can get SAR through a few carries. The general public certainly doesn't and its not nearly as popular as in Europe
2) Terrain and type of rescue. I think there may be a real difference the psychology involved with someone's willingness to call for help if they fall into a crevasse versus if they are lost in the woods. You might think you can get yourself out of one situation.. stuck on a ledge in a dark crevasse you know you need rescue.

Once again I keep going back to... 4M skier visits in VT alone. I feel like this is such a small issue when put into that context. And where does it stop? I know a girl who tragically died a few years back in the PNW in a pretty well publicized tree well incident at a resort. Huge search...largest ever at the time in fact, should her family have gotten a bill? Tree wells are known hazards to be avoided right? You should always ski with a buddy in visual/audible contact after a dump right?

No waste is good waste but I just feel like the SAR issue provides a soap box/bully pulpit because of the nature of the incidents.. helicopters, big searches, "you crazy skier/boarders getting extreme and costing us money." It makes for good drama but the reality is its a drop in the bucket compared to what the industry earns for a given state and regular old fashioned government inefficiency/waste.

 

[riverc0il]

If you look at the area where folks at K have been getting lost, it is pretty damn obvious that they should not go there. K Ski patrol has put up signs, ropes, and pretty blunt warnings. I'm not sure if it gets much clearer than that.

K has put up lots of signage but I don't think that makes it clear. Think about it... how many ski areas with excellent side country put up warning signs? Signs along the boundary are practically an invitation now. People know that good stuff lies outside the boundary ropes.

The problem with such warning signs is all signs as a whole loose their collective impact when they "cry wolf" on occasion, let alone at almost every area. Almost all major ski areas have their best skiing outside of the boundary ropes. Just off the top of my head, excellent out of boundary skiing can be had at Wildcat, Cannon, Jay, Mad River, Stowe, and Smuggs just to name a few. They all have boundary signs, they all have warning signs. The signs are practically an invitation for skiers that know about lines but don't know where they are.

The only difference is a few people every year don't have good navigational skills and just blindly follow tracks without thinking about it. I've certainly looked for such signs when skiing an area for a first time and knowing good side country was available. The only difference is I went out with a good plan of attach and navigational skills that suggested to "go a little further each time and always know a way that will definitely bring you back". Going off the backside of a ridge without knowledge, someone in the know, or a survival game plan is just dumb.

Any ways, I don't buy that warning signs should prevent this type of thing from happening. These incidents are only the ones in which the people did something dumb and needed help. Others are doing dumb things and finding their own way out. Most of us are skiing past those signs (in general, maybe not the K specific ones) and finding great skiing.

Overall, boundary ropes are invitations, not warnings, because at most major mountains, there is in fact something beyond the rope that is quite good.

 

[Scruffy]

A couple years ago I had a sufferfest on Mount Whittier. I made it off the hill okay, but at one point I truly thought I was going to get mauled by a bear to death. Had I not made it off the hill, what do you all think should have been my bill?

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ttier-(nelsap)-Misery-tour&highlight=Whittier

$250-$500......FIVE GRAND?

Read the story. I'm clearly a gaper who had no business schussing the BC. Clearly their should be some sort of law/fine in place preventing idiots like me from attempting the crazy dangerous Mt. Whittier.

I don't think any one was advocating a rescue charge for general BC skiing or hiking/backpacking, or any other such activity that would require SAR. The fine or rescue charge came up as a local to Killington deterrent to keep the Joyeys from thinking twice about blindly going off the back side and getting lost. The law allowing VT to charge for a rescue appears to be on the books, yet the State Police, who are the SAR in VT, do not want to charge because of the delay factor. So be it, it's their call. Education seems to be the way to go here. It will be interesting to see how Killington pulls off the education if they go that route; apparently the SP have asked them to do something about the problem.

Good story on Whittier, have you been out on your skins since?

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think any one was advocating a rescue charge for general BC skiing or hiking/backpacking, or any other such activity that would require SAR. The fine or rescue charge came up as a local to Killington deterrent to keep the Joyeys from thinking twice about blindly going off the back side and getting lost.

That sounds pretty ridiculous/elitist to me. The cost of SAR doesn't change whether you are an experienced skier or a "Joey". If your going to start charging for SAR, then everyone should be charged. It's only fair whether you're a "Joey" or Dan Egan.

Regarding whether a fine would be a deterrent; do you seriously think the "Joeyes" would even bother to look up the potential fines for requiring a SAR? Even if they didn't look it up, do you think they'd read enough news stories about others being billed for a SAR to not ski out of bounds themselves? I'd put the probability of such a deterrent working at less than 5%.

The law allowing VT to charge for a rescue appears to be on the books, yet the State Police, who are the SAR in VT, do not want to charge because of the delay factor. So be it, it's their call.

Can't blame them really. Most people who do such jobs typically have a passion for public service. There certainly are some assholes on a power trip who wear the badge, but most cops I know do so because they want to help civilians. It would kill them to not act and help people over politics/money.

Education seems to be the way to go here. It will be interesting to see how Killington pulls off the education if they go that route; apparently the SP have asked them to do something about the problem.

Education is certainly the way to go, but it would have to be pretty in your face for most people to take notice. Prominent signage at all lifts concerning the dangers and how many people have gotten lost would perhaps be the only way to go. The only similar in your face PSA I can ever recall at skiers was about 10 odd years ago at Stowe regarding avalanches. IIRC someone died that winter in an avalanche in the Adirondacks and recent snow/weather patterns were resulting in a number of reported small slides by BC skiers at Stowe. I stayed away from hiking the Chin during those times until the signs were removed and the all clear was given that the snowpack was stable.

Good story on Whittier, have you been out on your skins since?

I haven't, but not because of my experience on Whittier. Since that time I've gone back to school full time, while continuing to work full time. I have such limited time to ski these days that when I do have the time, I want to spend as much time as possible skiing downhill. It's not that I wouldn't have a great time skinning in the BC for limited vertical decent, it's just that I literally can only ski one day a week these days, so I want to be doing laps off lifts.

Though I have to say a couple of weeks ago I was kicking myself for leaving my skins at home on a Powder Day at Gunstock because high winds had forced the upper mountain lifts to close. I came home unfulfilled and pissed off and wrote a Trip Report about it here. Had I had my skins with me, chances are that even if I used them to take just one run in the foot+ of fresh from the summit, I'd have come home fulfilled and happy I made the effort and written a trip report here on my epic experience. Lesson learned. In the event that I maybe skiing on a day with potential withholds in the future, I'll probably be certain to have my skins with me if there's fresh snow to be had by using them.

 

[Scruffy]

That sounds pretty ridiculous/elitist to me. The cost of SAR doesn't change whether you are an experienced skier or a "Joey". If your going to start charging for SAR, then everyone should be charged. It's only fair whether you're a "Joey" or Dan Egan.
.

I agree it would be elitist to charge for SAR based on experience, but that's not my position. The issue is how do you stop the inexperienced, with no knowledge of what they are getting into, from ducting ropes and ignoring warning signs and skiing into the black hole that is the flats off the back of K-ton, that's all nothing more, nothing less.

Regarding whether a fine would be a deterrent; do you seriously think the "Joeyes" would even bother to look up the potential fines for requiring a SAR? Even if they didn't look it up, do you think they'd read enough news stories about others being billed for a SAR to not ski out of bounds themselves? I'd put the probability of such a deterrent working at less than 5%.

.

No, they would most likely not know about the fine unless it was heavily posted at the ropes, and in the lodges.

I no longer think fines are the way to go however, I think education is the best shot here.

 

[thetrailboss]

VPR had a story on this issue, now up to 47 folks going missing, and what steps may be taken to warn folks about skiing out of bounds, particularly at Killington.

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/97170/lost-skiers-growing-problem-for-resorts-emergency/

Vermont's Public Safety Commissioner has been talking this week with the Vermont Ski Areas Association, state troopers, ski resort officials and others about a problem they're all concerned about - lost skiers.
In the last several weeks, Vermont State Police, ski patrollers and other first responders have had to look for 47 lost skiers and riders, 45 of them in the Killington-Pico area.
Bob Giolito is a former Killington Ski Patroller who's now a state trooper. He says, "Whenever we have a good snow year, you're going to have people going off the back side."
While he welcomes the growing popularity of backcountry skiing, Giolito says too many people are heading into the woods without a plan.
He points to an area on the backside of Killington where its obvious skiers have ducked under ropes and gone right past warning signs that say Out of Bounds, No Skiing Beyond This Point.
"I mean if we look out here you'll see tracks going right into that field," says Giolito. "And if I'm looking from here, I'm like, wow, that looks like some powder, I'm going to ski that. But as they go down, the trees get closer, and tighter and tighter and then they realize they're in a problem."
A problem, becausethis part of the ridgeline drops off fast and leads far away from any lifts.
Dozens of 9-1-1 calls later, the state police, tourism department and ski industry officials are trying to work together to come up with a solution.
Parker Riehle, Executive Director of the Vermont Ski Areas Associatio, says those breaking the rules are a tough market to reach. He says Killington has suggested putting full-size cut outs of state police near their ticket windows. He says the displays would include stern warnings about the dangers of skiing out of bounds. Riele says Killington officials have also talked about posting public safety personnel at some of the trouble spots on the mountain, at least during busy holiday weekends.
It's a tough issue, he admits "We're talking about 18-28 year old males, day-ticket purchases from out of state, so the ability to reach them and reach them convincingly - because," Riehle adds, "don't forget they're ignoring the signs and going under ropes as it is. It's very difficult to get them to stop or at least do this back country skiing a lot smarter." Riele says, "that's been the real challenge certainly in this situation for Killington and for any ski area."
Parker Riehle says he hopes a new public safety campaign aimed at this issue that the state plans to launch in the near future will also help.

 

[thetrailboss]

Here we go again....

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...skiers-rescued-Killington-after-leaving-trail

Some quotes:

On the second day of National Safety Awareness Week for skiers, three missing teenagers were found uninjured Sunday afternoon after they intentionally skied out of bounds at the Killington Ski Resort, police said

How ironic....

And:

State police said last week they hoped to meet with Killington officials in an effort to cut down on the number of skiers going out-of-bounds at the resort. Police were looking to curtail “these reckless and poorly thought out acts by skiers who are not physically/mentally prepared to deal with the harsh Vermont winter conditions they face upon getting lost,” Capt. Ray Keefe said in an email.

 

[riverc0il]

It seems a lot of these stories come from Killington. Are being going out of bounds and getting lost at other areas? I hear an occasional story every once and a while (I recall a helo S&R effort at Jay a few years ago when someone skied past the Dip area and was a few hundred feet from the LT when they were rescued). But those every now and again stories don't have the frequency of the Killington stories which seem to happen on a yearly basis...

 

[thetrailboss]

Update: Killington and the state are releasing a new PSA on skiing out of bounds.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20703865/psas-aim-to-educate-out-of-bounds-skiers

I'd be interested to see it.

 

[fbrissette]

Update: Killington and the state are releasing a new PSA on skiing out of bounds.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20703865/psas-aim-to-educate-out-of-bounds-skiers

I'd be interested to see it.

Taking to the airwaves ????? Seems to me that's it's a sure way NOT to reach their intended crowd.

 

[Scruffy]

Here is what Stowe posts on their website:

[h=3]Backcountry Safety[/h] Areas of Stowe Mountain Resort marked outside of the ski area boundary on trail maps and with signage on the mountain itself, is hazardous backcountry terrain, containing unmarked hazards such as cliffs, thick, brushy terrain, riverbeds, stumps, rocks & avalanches. This area is not patrolled or maintained. Vermont law states that any person who uses ski area facilities to access terrain that is outside the open and designated trails shall be liable for any costs of rescue, medical or other services.
Please watch the Backcountry Skiing & Riding Safety video

 

[MadMadWorld]

When I was at Revelstoke they had strategically placed wipe boards at the more popular backcountry entrances that showed how many unprepared skiers needed to be rescued that season and how much the total cost was for the rescues. The numbers were pretty staggering and made me think twice. This obviously not a solution but I think it's better then PSA announcements.

 

[thetrailboss]

Looks like NH is thinking of selling "hike safe" cards to help pay for their rescue budget, which is in the red.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20882392/hikers-rescued-in-nh-could-pay-fee-under-bill

 

[deadheadskier]

Looks like NH is thinking of selling "hike safe" cards to help pay for their rescue budget, which is in the red.

http://www.wcax.com/story/20882392/hikers-rescued-in-nh-could-pay-fee-under-bill

...hunting and fishing license holders would avoid SAR fees too. I hear there's great bass fishing in Huntington Ravine!!!

 

[thetrailboss]

...hunting and fishing license holders would avoid SAR fees too. I hear there's great bass fishing in Huntington Ravine!!!

Yeah, really! :lol: I think their point is that folks who buy a license are already paying into the fund so they can get the services whereas they are trying to cut out the "freeloaders" who need NH Fish and Game Rescue but don't directly pay into the fund.

 

[thetrailboss]

Looks like the Vermont Legislature may act:

http://www.wcax.com/story/21217480/rescued-out-of-bounds-skiers-could-face-fines-under-vt-bill