WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[from_the_NEK]

Also, keep in mind you already do pay for rescues already, through taxes and the like. This is no different than having a police force, public hospital, or fire department. Most likely, its members from these organizations that will be assisting with your rescue to begin with.

I'm sure there is some portion of the police force, public hospital, or fire department budgets that account for these types of rescues. However, when this starts becoming an almost daily occurrence and often times the rescues aren't completed until well into the evening (sometimes they go all night), these departments start running up huge tabs for overtime and peripheral expenses (fuel, vehicle maintenance, etc). At the next town meeting when these departments come in looking for large increases in their budgets, it really sucks big-time for the taxpayers.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I've been a bit of a Nostradamus on this and I predict it will get worse. More and more people are skiing in the woods, and many of them have no business being there. And I mean even on the map. It's the "cool thing" to do now, and you'll see people no better than barely a passable low-level intermediate in fairly steep woods at places like Jay Peak EVERY time out. They're begging to get hurt. As more people without a clue are ducking into woods at/near ski area boundaries, this is bound to happen.

 

[ScottySkis]

At killington people ski off the back side of coops and get lost every year. There is some decent skiing down to wheelerville rd but if you dont know your way you can get stuck in the flats and have to spend a very cold night out there. The appalachian trail is back there as is the long trail and many other hiking trails so people see them and follow them then when they go uphill people continue downhill and get lost. If you have no idea where your going than stay inbounds.

That is what happen to me and my friend thanksgiving Fridayb2001 it was so snowy, but we got lost, and had to walk for hours.

 

[RootDKJ]

The rescuees never actually go before the "panel".
A member of the State Police (with extra training for this task) interviews the rescuee(s) immediately after their rescue. The short list of questions above should take no more than 5 minutes per person to complete. Most likely the State Police are already asking followup questions to file with thier reports.
The answers are then taken before the panel (consisting of the specially trained officer and 2 or three high ranking members of the resort's ski patrol). They review the answers and make a determination of Large, Small, or no charge. Of course there will be inconsistancy in anwsers between members of a group but the more inconsistant the answers the more likely they are to get charged. The panel process should take no more than 2 hours. I figure the "No Charge" cases would be pretty easy to determine and therefore the panel would only deliberate for a short amount of time. The cases were charges are applied would pay for the extra work.

I don't see grounds for a legal battle here. If someone challenges the panel ruling, the State Police can invoke the fact that they can be legally charging full price for these rescues and if the rescuees really want to pay for what the rescue REALLY cost, then they are more than welcome to argue about the relatively tiny $1000 or $500 charges. 8)

There's lots of potential legal problems here.

Am I being detained against my will during this interrogation and panel review process? Am I required to answer the questions by either the SP or the resort management (ymmv on skiing there again)? Does resort management have legal grounds to penalize me with a fine (tax) to the State?

 

[AdironRider]

I'm sure there is some portion of the police force, public hospital, or fire department budgets that account for these types of rescues. However, when this starts becoming an almost daily occurrence and often times the rescues aren't completed until well into the evening (sometimes they go all night), these departments start running up huge tabs for overtime and peripheral expenses (fuel, vehicle maintenance, etc). At the next town meeting when these departments come in looking for large increases in their budgets, it really sucks big-time for the taxpayers.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

Its been posted on this board and elsewhere that this past holiday season set attendance records.

To have (and I admit its a high no) a two week frame of reference on the issue and to imply that it will be fact moving forward is a bit much.

That being said, I agree with those that think that personal responsibility should be priority number one. That is the only solution to the problem.

Charging outrageous fees is just going to prevent people from calling for help when they really need it. Do you think some broke college student at closing time lost in the woods is going to call in knowing its going to cost him thousands, or think that maybe he can make it out before dark? That only leads to a worse situation.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

That is what happen to me and my friend thanksgiving Fridayb2001 it was so snowy, but we got lost, and had to walk for hours.

Scotty,

As someone who has been lost back behind Coops maybe you could share what your thoughts were.

Did you plan on skiing off the back and down to Wheelerville rd and just got lost because your weren't familiar with the terrain? OR did you see tracks and assume they lead back to the resort?

Or maybe some other scenario?

 

[from_the_NEK]

There's lots of potential legal problems here.

Am I being detained against my will during this interrogation and panel review process?
No.

Am I required to answer the questions by either the SP or the resort management (ymmv on skiing there again)?
No

Does resort management have legal grounds to penalize me with a fine (tax) to the State?
Not sure about the resort, but the State Police does have legal grounds to charge (the full cost) for a rescue. Which I would assume would be more likely enforced if the rescuee(s) do not cooperate and refuse to answer questions

... need 2 characters outside quote...

 

[Riverskier]

Im pretty against being charged for rescue. Shit happens, whether by stupidity or dumb luck.

I think the comparison to having your car break down is weak. Thats not a life or death situation and most likely your fault to begin with due to neglected maintenance or what have you.

A more proper comparison would be if you are in danger. My house caught fire when I was in college. We werent charged as it was a public service.

Also, keep in mind you already do pay for rescues already, through taxes and the like. This is no different than having a police force, public hospital, or fire department. Most likely, its members from these organizations that will be assisting with your rescue to begin with.

I agree with this.

 

[ScottySkis]

Scotty,

As someone who has been lost back behind Coops maybe you could share what your thoughts were.

Did you plan on skiing off the back and down to Wheelerville rd and just got lost because your weren't familiar with the terrain? OR did you see tracks and assume they lead back to the resort?

Or maybe some other scenario?

We were young and stupid, no plan we just started skiing the glades and it probably snowed half a foot that day and after 30-;minutes we realize something wad wrong and it got flat, we call the local police on our cell and they told us lots of.people do this and we to pay a huge fee which neither one of wanted to do, so we walk out it wad very scary actually I was so tired I threw out my skis which were old any way, we eventually got the road and their was another group of kids there, we all split a cab back to the parking lot of K. That why to this day I'm very anxious about glades.


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[fbrissette]

I'm sure there is some portion of the police force, public hospital, or fire department budgets that account for these types of rescues. However, when this starts becoming an almost daily occurrence and often times the rescues aren't completed until well into the evening (sometimes they go all night), these departments start running up huge tabs for overtime and peripheral expenses (fuel, vehicle maintenance, etc). At the next town meeting when these departments come in looking for large increases in their budgets, it really sucks big-time for the taxpayers.

In most cases, ski patrols (most of them are not paid) and volunteers will be part of the search. The analogy to a house fire is not good. Your taxes specifically pay for the fire department and you have an insurance for damage to your goods.

In Europe you can get a backcountry insurance that would cover the cost of helicopter rescue. In New Hampshire, you will be charged in cases of negligence (at least it used to be like that when I was skiing Tuckerman regularly).

Another approach would be to charge a fixed amount on lift ticket price (0.5$ as an example) to setup an across the state search and rescue fund. But in this case, you would be asking every skier to cover the cost for a few irresponsible yahoos.

 

[from_the_NEK]

That being said, I agree with those that think that personal responsibility should be priority number one. That is the only solution to the problem.

Charging outrageous fees is just going to prevent people from calling for help when they really need it. Do you think some broke college student at closing time lost in the woods is going to call in knowing its going to cost him thousands, or think that maybe he can make it out before dark? That only leads to a worse situation.

Good luck with getting the general public to become more personally responsible.

I don't think $1000 and $500 is outrageous. It is a lot of money, especially to a college kid. However, that is within the range of the cost of a season pass at most of the resorts in Vermont. Maybe a $500 and $250 fine levels would be more appropriate? The fine amount is up for debate but it would need to remain high enough that it would still be a deterrent.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

Also, keep in mind you already do pay for rescues already, through taxes and the like. This is no different than having a police force, public hospital, or fire department. Most likely, its members from these organizations that will be assisting with your rescue to begin with.

This thread is crushing my productivity at work today, haha.

OK thinking about what AdironRider said a little more. How many of these people needing rescue are VT residents? Probably not many especially @ K-Ton. So they don't even pay VT taxes.

 

[RootDKJ]

I don't believe a fine (tax) would be a deterrent. Do fines deter people from driving over the speed limit?

 

[fbrissette]

I don't believe a fine (tax) would be a deterrent. Do fines deter people from driving over the speed limit?

It wont be a deterrent. But when caught speeding, you pay the fine. Same thing with backcountry negligence/accident. I fail to see why taxes (most of my taxes are paid in Canada and I backcountry in Vermont) should cover the risks I willfully take when hitting the backcountry.

 

[from_the_NEK]

In most cases, ski patrols (most of them are not paid) and volunteers will be part of the search. The analogy to a house fire is not good. Your taxes specifically pay for the fire department and you have an insurance for damage to your goods.

In Europe you can get a backcountry insurance that would cover the cost of helicopter rescue. In New Hampshire, you will be charged in cases of negligence (at least it used to be like that when I was skiing Tuckerman regularly).

Another approach would be to charge a fixed amount on lift ticket price (0.5$ as an example) to setup an across the state search and rescue fund. But in this case, you would be asking every skier to cover the cost for a few irresponsible yahoos.

The House Fire was not my analogy. It is close but not perfect to what we are talking about. However, Fire Departments do often respond to these rescues resulting in increased taxes to provide the supplies and man-power to cover these rescues.

True that a lot of the searchers are often volunteer Ski Patrol. I'm not sure how you would compensate them. It would be interesting to know how many ski patrollers would vote for a fine system like the one I have proposed?
IMHO they would rather have a deterrent that effectively reduces the number of rescues they respond to instead of figuring out how to get paid for a large numbers of rescues.

Backcountry insurance is an option. You have it, you are covered. No insurance, and you’re taking out a second mortgage.

A .05 charge per ticket isn't going to deter anyone. In fact, it would almost encourage idiots to go out of bounds since the rescue fee is paid for in the ticket.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Do fines deter people from driving over the speed limit?

Yes they do. I know a lot of people that don't speed due to fear of getting fined. Does it stop everybody? Of course not but it significantly reduces the amount of people driving 90mph.

 

[fbrissette]

It would be interesting to know how many ski patrollers would vote for a fine system like the one I have proposed?
IMHO they would rather have a deterrent that effectively reduces the number of rescues they respond to instead of figuring out how to get paid for a large numbers of rescues.

Backcountry insurance is an option. You have it, you are covered. No insurance, and you’re taking out a second mortgage.

A .05 charge per ticket isn't going to deter anyone. In fact, it would almost encourage idiots to go out of bounds since the rescue fee is paid for in the ticket.

I don't like backcountry insurance. I think everyone should be liable to cover the rescue costs or at least a should get a hefty fine. I find it curious that so many advocate the libertarian approach of letting anyone hit the backcountry, but are quick to say that others should incur the cost for rescue.

 

[AdironRider]

Hypothetical scnario.

I think its safe to assume that someone volunteering to ski patrol, most certainly expects, if not wants, to be part of a rescue situation. To think that they need to be compensated is a non-issue and shouldnt be taken into account. (Keep in mind Im not saying they want people to get hurt, but rather they find it exciting and want to do all they can to help).

While I dont doubt that most people who require rescue are not actual VT residents, I think its averaged out in the grand scheme of things over time where other VT residents might need rescue in another state. Otherwise its saying noone from VT ever gets in a jam, but everyone else does. We all know thats not true.

Ultimately, I dont think you should be putting fines as a hard a fast rule, as ultimately, it will be a deterrent to getting necessary help. I find it highly doubtful that anyone on this board wouldnt think to themselves, "I think I can get out of this", knowing that if you make that call, youre in for a fine. I would definitely think about it at the very least. I also think this board has more wits about them when it comes to being in the BC than the average gaper, so I think our frame of reference is a bit different than say some kid from Jersey who thinks he can just make an igloo and figure it out in the morning.

Not saying the fire comparison (which was mine) is perfect, but its certainly closer than breaking down in your car. When your car breaks down the worst that happens in boredom or you are late. Hardly life or death, which was more my point.

 

[bobbutts]

Culture is producing an increasing number of people who think they have skills that they don't actually have. When everyone in the league gets a trophy, people actually start to believe they can achieve whatever they want with no effort.

 

[AdironRider]

Culture is producing an increasing number of people who think they have skills that they don't actually have. When everyone in the league gets a trophy, people actually start to believe they can achieve whatever they want with no effort.

Completely agree.

I stopped coaching swimming because I got tired of every helicopter Mom demanding that their kid (its always the ones that can hardly float, let alone swim fast) be on the top tier relay team because hes the best thing ever.

Sorry he sucks. I learned at a young age that I sucked at ball sports. I learned I was good at swimming, skiing, etc. I didnt get my panties in a bunch because some kids were better than me at football.

So yeah, I blame the parents, but I think you are onto the root cause of the problem for sure.