LiftBlog Reports that Smuggs and Stowe are Exploring an Interconnect Gondola

[kbroderick]

Why? You have 108 making it a short drive outside of winter. No way this is used beyond winter season, unless it morphed into a lift like DHS suggested. Even then, I don't see them running that type of monster lift year round.

Once they have all three stages in place, they're going to encourage 18-wheeler traffic through the Notch and then sell parking spaces and gondola tickets to people who don't want to wait for the 18-wheelers to be removed.

 

[Tonyr]

I'm assuming the folks in support of this plan also support the K / Pico interconnect?

What about a transfer lift from Inverness at Sugarbush North over to MRG? Yes, I know, pretty unlikely unless MRG folds and the COOP dissolves. But I'm sure it's been proposed in the past.

A Stowe Smuggs combination, could definitely push Killington to finally connect Pico.

 

[RH29]

A Stowe Smuggs combination, could definitely push Killington to finally connect Pico.

Killington and Pico will not be connected until after the village, imho...if ever. I've read people acting as if the interconnect will be crucial to get people to buy homes there, but in reality, there's already a housing shortage at Killington. Plenty of people will buy units as is. What's really needed are new lifts and lodges at Ramshead and Snowshed.

 

[cdskier]

A Stowe Smuggs combination, could definitely push Killington to finally connect Pico.

I sure hope not...

 

[Newpylong]

I think folks are reading into this way too much. Smuggs does not fit the Vail portfolio, and certainly not what they want to see for Infrastructure. Vail does not fit the Smuggs clientele. I take Stritzler at his word that a sale is not in the cards.

 

[snoseek]

I think folks are reading into this way too much. Smuggs does not fit the Vail portfolio, and certainly not what they want to see for Infrastructure. Vail does not fit the Smuggs clientele. I take Stritzler at his word that a sale is not in the cards.

Neither does kirkwood or wildcat and they had no problem scooping those places up

 

[deadheadskier]

Does Bill have children and do they want to run it? Bill is 85 years old. He may want to keep full control while he's still around, but let's not be foolish here. I put the chances of eventual acquisition at near 100% if a connector lift goes in.

I'd need to read "No" from his kids to believe anything other.

 

[jaytrem]

Often #1 rated family resort a couple thousand feet from a resort they already own. Can't believe they wouldn't want it. They put in 5 new lifts a JFBB in one year. I don't think anything they see at Smuggs would make the blink an eye. Put in three high speeds and they're good in the lift department.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

I think folks are reading into this way too much. Smuggs does not fit the Vail portfolio, and certainly not what they want to see for Infrastructure. Vail does not fit the Smuggs clientele. I take Stritzler at his word that a sale is not in the cards.

Strizler specifically said that a future financial interest in Smuggs by vail is not off the table. There’s audio from a staff meeting after the rumor leaked

 

[4aprice]

This will probably be an unpopular post but it's just an opinion and with my future cemented out in the Rockies I have no skin in the game. I grew up skiing Smugglers back in the day when it was called Madonna Mountain Ski Area. When the village was just being built we rented seasonally for several years. In the 70's it was pretty decent and a great place to learn skiing, however,, not that much has changed there over the years. Not sure exactly what was the last year I visited but much of the infrastructure was the same, places like the mid Madonna Lodge had very little done to it. It seemed to me that time had really past the resort by and to be honest, besides some good skiing, it is no longer a place I want to take my wife. I'm sure there are many that prefer it that way, question is are there enough to keep it afloat?

Not going to get into the Vail question as that has been discussed to death in other threads, but the connection has always been there and when open presented a skiing experience unique in New England. The idea of these transfer lifts is something that has really come about recently and I don't believe they are that awful an idea. You see it at places like Whistler, Park City and Telluride. Loon works it with a chair between the main mountain and South Peak. I could see a gondola starting at Toll House (as a side helping the Stowe parking situation) with stations at Mansfield, Spruce, Mid Madonna and ending at the Smugglers Village. Maybe there would even be a way to route it so it does not encroach on Sterling Pond. As far as skiing, think it would be pretty cool to start at the village ski your way over to Toll House have lunch and ski your way back , very European in Vermont no less. I could see Killington doing something similar when they build their village giving guests access to the top of Pico.

Smuggs itself is ripe for lift upgrades among other things. For years I've heard off plans to replace the Sterling chair with a high speed lift. That would be a good start. Madonna 1 is another question. Back in the seventies when I first skied there the last rise on the chair had the cable above the tree tops. They subsequently lowered it at some point in the late 70's early, 80's to try and reduce wind holds. There is no way I see to put a high speed detachable up there, however, I could see a possible remedy to this. My idea (for those of you who know Smuggs follow me here) would be to pull Madonna 2 and replace with a high speed detachable maybe up to the shoulder of the mountain where Chilcoot makes its turn back toward the base. At that point cut a trail that runs parallel to Cat Walk (which is further up the mt) across the mountain to a spot near where there is a mid station on the current Madonna 1 lift. I would then cut the lift length and have the Madonna 1 lift start there and go to the summit (ie eliminate the bottom half of Madonna 1. The result would be access to more of Madonna even when the summit was on wind hold. Morse would probably benefit from a hs lift as well. There was talk of a lift from the Village to the top of Morse Mountain but I doubt they would ever do that now.

Just my $.02

 

[Newpylong]

Neither does kirkwood or wildcat and they had no problem scooping those places up

No choice on Wildcat, came with the sale.

I don't know anything about Kirkwood.

 

[ss20]

No choice on Wildcat, came with the sale.

I don't know anything about Kirkwood.

Kirkwood is the closest thing to Smuggs in the Vail portfolio. Medium sized mountain with a reputation for being gnarly. And it still has 2 hsq's and fixed grip quads/triples... the most antiquated in the Vail fleet and it's still decent lift infrastructure. But...most importantly...it's near a population base. It can pull a few folks from the already overcrowded Northstar and Heavenly.

Smuggs doesn't have the lifts and doesn't have the population base.


The 6pack on Sterling has been approved for 15+ years and still never put in. Does anyone not see that as a red flag? Smuggler's Notch is not a massive gold mine that Vail NEEDS to own. It's a huge rock pile with narrow trails, challenging terrain, and even with a huge base village and real estate can't pull in enough $$$ to put in an already approved 6pack.

Where is the ROI for Vail in connecting with Smuggler's? Who on the east coast that hasn't bought an epic pass now would buy one outside of the few thousand Smuggler's Notch locals/diehards?

I am firm in my belief that this connection gondola is to increase the value of Stowe and Smuggs. They get sold in a package deal to a rich private entity that's not Altera or Powdr. Flipping Stowe for a substantial profit would look great on a balance sheet for Vail. And it would be at the expense of a few thousand Epic passes and a few hundred thousand skier visits, most of which would be redirected to another Vail owned property. Almost nothing in terms of a reduction in skier visits/pass sales but a very nice double-digit increase in free cash flow.

The thought that a connection gondola automatically means a Vail-owned Smuggs is shortsighted, imo. As Newpy says... it doesn't make sense at all in their portfolio.

 

[raisingarizona]

Kirkwood is the closest thing to Smuggs in the Vail portfolio. Medium sized mountain with a reputation for being gnarly. And it still has 2 hsq's and fixed grip quads/triples... the most antiquated in the Vail fleet and it's still decent lift infrastructure. But...most importantly...it's near a population base. It can pull a few folks from the already overcrowded Northstar and Heavenly.

Smuggs doesn't have the lifts and doesn't have the population base.


The 6pack on Sterling has been approved for 15+ years and still never put in. Does anyone not see that as a red flag? Smuggler's Notch is not a massive gold mine that Vail NEEDS to own. It's a huge rock pile with narrow trails, challenging terrain, and even with a huge base village and real estate can't pull in enough $$$ to put in an already approved 6pack.

Where is the ROI for Vail in connecting with Smuggler's? Who on the east coast that hasn't bought an epic pass now would buy one outside of the few thousand Smuggler's Notch locals/diehards?

I am firm in my belief that this connection gondola is to increase the value of Stowe and Smuggs. They get sold in a package deal to a rich private entity that's not Altera or Powdr. Flipping Stowe for a substantial profit would look great on a balance sheet for Vail. And it would be at the expense of a few thousand Epic passes and a few hundred thousand skier visits, most of which would be redirected to another Vail owned property. Almost nothing in terms of a reduction in skier visits/pass sales but a very nice double-digit increase in free cash flow.

The thought that a connection gondola automatically means a Vail-owned Smuggs is shortsighted, imo. As Newpy says... it doesn't make sense at all in their portfolio.

Nah. The connection would make it the biggest and baddest ski area in New England and there would be more people from Boston and the tri-state region that would be attracted to the epic pass because of that. Vail wants to lock them down into taking their vacations at their other resorts. Flipping what would become the biggest ski area out east don't make much sense to me.

 

[JoeB-Z]

As I said, and if my memory is correct given 30 years, it's a quick trip back and forth without a gondola. So if the passes interchanged or you could buy single ride tickets it could be done easily with no infrastructure. So the gondola is more of a marketing thing if there is even something marketable.

 

[teleo]

Smuggs looks to be just over 2 hours from Montreal. Stowe in the winter looks to be at least 20 min longer via 89 to 100. That's a big market pretty close that might be able to be further tapped into.

 

[jaytrem]

I guess Vail could have sold Wildcat on the cheap if they really didn't want it. Wasn't there a group trying to buy it recently. Has Vail ever sold a resort? Can't remember offhand. Not sure there's a ski area that's not Vail's type. Maybe they'll start buying up the surface lift places. Can't wait to use my epic pass at Northeast Slope!!!

 

[cdskier]

I really don't understand the argument that having the largest resort in the northeast wouldn't "fit in Vail's portfolio". That's just silly. A combined Stowe/Smuggs would easily become the Vail eastern flagship and premier resort. I also really don't think that a few older lifts at Smuggs that would need to be replaced would scare Vail away either.

And as to Vail using this as a way to increase Stowe's value and make selling it more profitable...why would they want to sell the resort that is already the most premium one in their portfolio in the east? It isn't like they acquired Stowe accidentally or as part of another bulk acquisition where they had no choice. Vail's never been in the business of buying a resort just to sell/flip it. They already invested over $6M in the new Sunrise Six lift. Now they're going to invest more millions in a connector gondola just to try to sell the resort? And how can anyone honestly think Vail would want the Stowe Epic pass-holders to suddenly be all going to a competitor if they sold the resort? Stowe's clientele are exactly the ones they want visiting other resorts in the Vail portfolio out west and spending money there.

 

[raisingarizona]

As I said, and if my memory is correct given 30 years, it's a quick trip back and forth without a gondola. So if the passes interchanged or you could buy single ride tickets it could be done easily with no infrastructure. So the gondola is more of a marketing thing if there is even something marketable.

“If there’s even something marketable.”

Huh? Wait, what? You’re joking right?

Seriously though, wtf?

You’ve got to be trolling right?

 

[mbedle]

Well except for the fact that you would need to take either the Spruce or Sterling chairs to access the gondola. As currently planned there really isn't much of a use for this transfer gondola for non-ski related activities. There's no full service facilities at the top of Spruce or Sterling either and both would be quite expensive to develop due to the need to install water and sewage infrastructure.

This is why I suggested that the long term plan might be to add additional gondolas on Sterling and Spruce in order to make it a full base to base weather protected ride.

I think the base to base gondola is going to be ultimately necessary. There is no family friendly terrain from the top of spruce/sterling. On Spruce, you are stuck with diamonds to ski back to the Spruce base. If the connector is put in, and without any new trails put in on Spruce, there is going to be a hell of a lot of warning signs about lack of intermediate and beginner terrain being available to ski back down to Spruce.

 

[skef]

On the Smugg's website: https://www.smuggs.com/connect