The "Sugarbush Thread"

[Newpylong]

Not quite on the water side. Killington only has a pumping capacity of around 6000 gpm. Stratton on the other hand, 10,000 gpm. SB is at 4000. The big difference is air. Like @Newpylong said Killington and Stratton have way more than air capacity. SB only has 4100 cfm of air capacity. They all are now using the same gear. So they can run oodles more guns than SB. For comparison, on Saturday the temps were marginal so all the guns, either mountain, were on stage 1, which is about 14 gpm of water and 54 cfm of air for HKDs and 12 gpm/18cfm for Logics. SB can't keep up during marginal temps.

When did they go all the way down to 4100 CFM?! Lincoln was 18,000 and Ellen 12,000 CFM not that long ago.

That may be why your guns are valved that low. I had our R5's valved from factory to use 66 CFM and 19 GPM on Step 1. It's kinda not even really worth running at 12 GPM. Also hydrant spacing is definitely an issue at the Bush, it definitely contributes to your mean time to completion.

BTW Killington is way undersized for their acreage but they can pump more than that. That system is so complex and nuanced, but the number they can effectively put on the hill (and not transfer from here to there) is around 8,000 GPM. They got a little boost this year by adding an additional pump to Bear.

 

[raisingarizona]

how the hell does mrg have that and jay has 100 inches?

The Jay Cloud: Fact or Fiction? - Vermont Sports Magazine

Photo courtesy Jay Peak Resort If, like me, you grew up in a place like Long Island, NY, when it

vtsports.com

 

[ThatGuy]

Until Jay has a snowcam I won’t believe they get that much more than Stowe/Smuggs. Maybe 5-10% more max, but the totals they post are borderline unbelievable sometimes.

 

[Hawk]

I've skied there a bunch over the years. It just snows and snows. I am inclined to believe by my experiences that the reports are pretty much accurate.

 

[Plowboy]

FB post today. Snow looks great!!​

​

Green Mountain Valley School- GMVS is at Sugarbush Resort - Mt. Ellen. ·
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We’re ready for training! Winter term has begun and training on Elbow @sugarbush_vt starts tomorrow

 

[fulgoreXC]

When did they go all the way down to 4100 CFM?! Lincoln was 18,000 and Ellen 12,000 CFM not that long ago.

That may be why your guns are valved that low. I had our R5's valved from factory to use 66 CFM and 19 GPM on Step 1. It's kinda not even really worth running at 12 GPM. Also hydrant spacing is definitely an issue at the Bush, it definitely contributes to your mean time to completion.

BTW Killington is way undersized for their acreage but they can pump more than that. That system is so complex and nuanced, but the number they can effectively put on the hill (and not transfer from here to there) is around 8,000 GPM. They got a little boost this year by adding an additional pump to Bear.

2017 SB swapped out one of the original 6000's for a new variable centac with 4100 cfm top end. The other 2 original 6000's are still there, but there's an issue with the cooling system. At Ellen the last 1980's centac was swapped out for a new SSR to match the other 2 installed in 2015. There's now 4500 cfm. Which pairs well with the 2200 gpm of water cap. Ellen is pretty much optimized anywhere on the mountain.

Agreed hydrant spacing is definitely spread out. But with land gear too close is also a problem. The HKD tower guns they run are a mix of older SV10's and various generation Impulses, all 4 step with the air nozzles left factory stock. Air is the limiter until the other compressors are brought back online. With a bunch of logics mixed in 100+/- guns are it early season. It's a delicate balance trying to optimize the system. At least until the sub 20deg temps arrive. Last might must have been good for production.

I knew K was working on the bear pumphouse but didn't appreciate that they added a pump.

 

[thetrailboss]

FB post today. Snow looks great!!​

​

Green Mountain Valley School- GMVS is at Sugarbush Resort - Mt. Ellen. ·​

Follow​

We’re ready for training! Winter term has begun and training on Elbow @sugarbush_vt starts tomorrow

View attachment 66948

I miss Elbow. It’s a favorite of mine.

 

[tumbler]

Please tell me they are getting the cooling system fixed?!

 

[Plowboy]

I miss Elbow. It’s a favorite of mine.

I remember when it was called Devil's Elbow, a lot narrower and had trees in it!!

 

[Newpylong]

2017 SB swapped out one of the original 6000's for a new variable centac with 4100 cfm top end. The other 2 original 6000's are still there, but there's an issue with the cooling system. At Ellen the last 1980's centac was swapped out for a new SSR to match the other 2 installed in 2015. There's now 4500 cfm. Which pairs well with the 2200 gpm of water cap. Ellen is pretty much optimized anywhere on the mountain.

Agreed hydrant spacing is definitely spread out. But with land gear too close is also a problem. The HKD tower guns they run are a mix of older SV10's and various generation Impulses, all 4 step with the air nozzles left factory stock. Air is the limiter until the other compressors are brought back online. With a bunch of logics mixed in 100+/- guns are it early season. It's a delicate balance trying to optimize the system. At least until the sub 20deg temps arrive. Last might must have been good for production.

I knew K was working on the bear pumphouse but didn't appreciate that they added a pump.

Thanks for the updated info. The last I knew (which seems like it was quite a while ago now) it was:

Lincoln 3 x 1250hp 6000 cfm
Ellen 1 x 1250hp 6000 cfm, 2 x 3000 cfm, 1 x 4500 cfm

Those are crazy low numbers now, no wonder they struggle like you say. The industry standard, even going down to Low-E is to still have a 3-4:1 air:water ratio for burst capability. Even at little Black we have 2 Centacs for 5,000 CFM total and at least one 1800 CFM Atlas Copco diesel rental for burstable air. They only pump ~2,000 GPM.

 

[fulgoreXC]

Thanks for the updated info. The last I knew (which seems like it was quite a while ago now) it was:

Lincoln 3 x 1250hp 6000 cfm
Ellen 1 x 1250hp 6000 cfm, 2 x 3000 cfm, 1 x 4500 cfm

Those are crazy low numbers now, no wonder they struggle like you say. The industry standard, even going down to Low-E is to still have a 3-4:1 air:water ratio for burst capability. Even at little Black we have 2 Centacs for 5,000 CFM total and at least one 1800 CFM Atlas Copco diesel rental for burstable air. They only pump ~2,000 GPM.

3:1 is definitely desirable from an ops perspective. But air is very expensive. In an age where the SEI is the primary metric being measured air expansion is scrutinized

 

[thetrailboss]

I remember when it was called Devil's Elbow, a lot narrower and had trees in it!!

I almost called it Devil's Elbow for the oldtimers.

Alta has a Devil's Elbow.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

Love the well informed snowmaking system chitchat on this forum

F*ck ing love it

 

[Lotso]

Love the well informed snowmaking system chitchat on this forum

F*ck ing love it

Yeah, I am learning a lot and I used to be a snowmaker....way back when it was not nearly this technical...should have great temps now and into the weekend. Hope the water holds up...

 

[MadPadraic]

Yeah, I am learning a lot and I used to be a snowmaker....way back when it was not nearly this technical...should have great temps now and into the weekend. Hope the water holds up...

The stream by my condo is roaring, so they shouldn't have any trouble replenishing the pond. It's really up to the will of management to open terrain.

 

[Lotso]

The stream by my condo is roaring, so they shouldn't have any trouble replenishing the pond. It's really up to the will of management to open terrain.

This is blower powder so natural trails will be scoured shortly after opening, but every little bit helps. Seems like they are underpowered overall to deliver a lot of snow quickly?

 

[cdskier]

Seems like they are underpowered overall to deliver a lot of snow quickly?

We've been saying that for years...although we've also been told for years that the air side was adequate and not a limiting factor vs their water capacity. That seems highly questionable now based on the latest information shared here.

 

[Newpylong]

Yes, if they only have 4100 CFM for a mountain that pumps ~4,000 GPM then no matter how they spin it, that is entirely inadequate by a factor of at least 2.

With that little air compression, not only are they not even capable of using all available water, the product that they can make in marginal temps is going to be worse than usual. It's going to be wetter (because as Fulgore indicated, they are valved to favor air savings) and it's going to take longer than most anyone else to convert the same GPM/acre.

I don't have any flow charts for No Logics but for an HKD Impulse 12 if you're assuming 4,000 GPM nameplate capacity. Knock off a couple hundred GPM for the bleeds/returns. So say 3,800 CFM.

3,800 GPM / 30 GPM (typical R4/R5 Impulse on Stage 3) = 126 guns
126 x 66 CFM (typical R4/R5 Impulse on Stage 3) = 8,360 CFM air requirement

So they need to double their air plant to be able to use all of their water in a middle of the run wet bulb.

 

[thetrailboss]

Weren't they supposed to have fixed all these snowmaking issues? Add more capacity? It does not sound like it.

 

[cdskier]

Weren't they supposed to have fixed all these snowmaking issues? Add more capacity? It does not sound like it.

This particular topic/issue of only 1 working compressor at LP has never come up. Either it is new (i.e. cooling issues on the other 2 air compressors at LP just started) or it has flown under the radar and been hidden from people.

If they can't even effectively use all their current water capacity (which is already under-sized), that's a problem.