The Dismantling Begins

[Cannonball]

Great vid. Now picture it with lift served crowds in every frame.

1-3-10 was one of the sickest days ever at Cannon. We waited for that storm for 4 days and just kept stalling. When it came it came hard. I regret that I never pulled the camera out of my pocket that day, but we just couldn't bring ourselves to stop. I wake up every morning smiling, thinking about the overhead blower on Paulie's that day.

 

[riverc0il]

Great vid. Now picture it with lift served crowds in every frame.

EXACTLY. That middle section of liftline is a DREAM after fresh snow and a (rare be the day that it builds up enough) good base. I can not even imagine what lifeline will look like even after one day of lift serviced traffic volume. That particular section of trail I always avoiding unless there was fresh snow. Too bad they have to stay in the existing foot print cause the top of the liftline skis great, but that crux needs an alt route (aside from C.T.) for when conditions are bony. Seeing that video just reinforces my opinion that Mitt can not withstand lift serviced crowds without snow making.

 

[Johnskiismore]

I missed that day due to being in the dog house. I am still upset by it.:smash:

I missed that day too because we went to Wildcat. Let's just say that Wildcat wasn't Cannon that day. Received many calls and texts stating 'Tell me you were at Cannon today'! Yep, I need a beer now...

 

[BLESS]

vid was cool, music was terrible. who the hell thought that would be a good song to put on it? jeez.

 

[SIKSKIER]

Spent the last weekend at Mittersill and progress is showing.The liftline has been completly cleared.The haul rope is gone and all the towers are down with some removed.The old bull wheel is sitting in one of the Mittersill parking pods.I'll have to see if I can get a schedule of the tower setting to make my own Mittersill Heli porn like DMC has of Hunter.

 

[SIKSKIER]

It's too crowded,nobody goes there anymore

I do think it's interesting that all of the people who consider this a negative are devout Cannon skiers, while all of the positive comments come from those who say "I never skied there but...."

They don't come much more devout Cannon skier than myself having logged at least 1500-2000 days on 35 consectutive years of season passes.I do think this is a positive but understand the ties that myself and skiers like Steve have had to the ultimate slackfest in the east.Mittersill had quite a silent following,very much under cover for the first 10 years after it closed.We would go on many a secret cutting mission to make all the stashes that the masses look for today(including Steve I would guess).That's where I dislike sharing our work.However,it has become more and more poular over the last 10 years and has lost some of that charm.It was inevitable so I say let's see what the future brings.

 

[billski]

CannonSays...


With the downed towers as a backdrop, we'll officially break ground on the Mittersill Double Chair project this Friday at 9:30am. Governor Lynch is expected to attend along with other dignitaries...the public is also invited to attend. Cerenmony will likely be in the first parking pod nead the former base terminal.


I hope the lift turns better than they spell....

 

[Johnskiismore]

A few more pics:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=1266

 

[thetrailboss]

A few more pics:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=1266

VERY cool! Thanks! Maybe the NESM could get their hands on a few of those items for their collection.

 

[Johnskiismore]

VERY cool! Thanks! Maybe the NESM could get their hands on a few of those items for their collection.

That would be really cool, hopefully they will!

 

[threecy]

In other news, after dropping $2.6M on a double chairlift, a state commission is now evaluating putting Cannon Mountain up for lease due to mounting budget problems.

 

[thetrailboss]

In other news, after dropping $2.6M on a double chairlift, a state commission is now evaluating putting Cannon Mountain up for lease due to mounting budget problems.

I doubt that it will be leased. There are some influential folks who would prevent that from happening.

Did anyone go to the groundbreaking?

NO POLITICS PLEASE:

http://www.governor.nh.gov/media/news/2010/082010-mittersill.htm

http://www.wmur.com/news/24700595/detail.html

 

[threecy]

I doubt that it will be leased. There are some influential folks who would prevent that from happening.

New Hampshire is dealing with rapidly growing excessive deficits. The potential for Cannon to be leased in the next few years could soon be approaching an all time high. The current leadership in Concord has already allocated tens of millions of dollars of revenue in the state budget from things such as sales or leasing of state property.

The commission has to issue its final report on January 1st, which is the day after the Mittersill load test.

It makes very little sense for the state to be in the ski business when it can't even afford to handle business as usual.

 

[SIKSKIER]

A few more pics:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=1266

John,I assume you took those pics?Did you see the bundle of pipe in the parking area?If so,what do you think it's for?Looks way to small for snowmaking.

 

[riverc0il]

I have backed off my extreme anti-lease stance somewhat. I am still against leasing. Being against leasing was due to being fearful that Cannon would become just like any other "resort" and you'd have lease holders trying to slam through land power grabs like the Muellers are trying to do with Sunapee. Bad things could happen. But at the ski area proper? I am not sure how much a leasee could do to destroy the product. The trails have already been widened and they mow the bumps down expect for a few token half groomed trails and the Hards. Mitty is lift serviced. The tram operations were cut back. I dunno.

I will say it would be a crying shame for the state to have invested so much in Cannon (snowmaking, new groomers, base lodge renovations, new pub, work at mitty, new lift, etc) when they could have had a leasee make those improvements. Quite frankly, it would be REALLY dumb to lease the place at this point only after the state invested all the money into enhancing the place. That is the type of stuff you stick the leasee with.

 

[threecy]

Quite frankly, it would be REALLY dumb to lease the place at this point only after the state invested all the money into enhancing the place. That is the type of stuff you stick the leasee with.

I think the taxpayers of New Hampshire would benefit, so long as the lease agreement was put together in their best interest. The state could put in requirements that trails not be widened, the tram operate 7 days a week, discounts offered for NH residents, etc.

The lease agreement could give the state guaranteed income each year (whereas Cannon would be unlikely to break even for the state in a bad year right now), sort of like an REIT.

 

[riverc0il]

I think the taxpayers of New Hampshire would benefit, so long as the lease agreement was put together in their best interest. The state could put in requirements that trails not be widened, the tram operate 7 days a week, discounts offered for NH residents, etc.

The lease agreement could give the state guaranteed income each year (whereas Cannon would be unlikely to break even for the state in a bad year right now), sort of like an REIT.

From a tax payer perspective, there is no doubt of the benefit. There is not a ski area ownership around that would not kill for guaranteed profits every year with no risk involved. It is more about what is right for Cannon itself and the region rather than tax payers. If you only look at the tax payer perspective, theoretically, in a long enough time line we should just eliminate all government all together which would be the most interest to the tax payer. The question is whether the state can provide something that private interests could not accomplish. I dunno. Cannon has been run more like a private business more and more lately.

They couldn't possibly widen trails any more, discounts are already offered to NH residents. 7 day tram operation could be a benefit. What else? I just don't see the benefits out weighing the cons. I just don't see any benefits aside from guaranteed revenue for the state. And if that is your bottom line then let's just do away with taxes altogether. Cannon seems to be holding its own recently from a financial perspective. I just think there are bigger fish to fry if the state is that bad off financially... especially since part of making them bad off was their investment into the infrastructure.

I just like the vibe at Cannon. I just don't want the place to feel like Loon. To me, that is what it all comes down to. Fear of the resortification of the place. Money can't buy me a better feeling mountain than Cannon. Would not want a single tax break if it meant killing the spirit of the mountain. I will fully admit almost any argument I could put up against Cannon is not going to seem logical from the perspective of a libertarian.

 

[Johnskiismore]

John,I assume you took those pics?Did you see the bundle of pipe in the parking area?If so,what do you think it's for?Looks way to small for snowmaking.

I did take the pics, and I have no idea what those pipes are for.

 

[threecy]

It is more about what is right for Cannon itself and the region rather than tax payers. If you only look at the tax payer perspective, theoretically, in a long enough time line we should just eliminate all government all together which would be the most interest to the tax payer.

The question is whether the state can provide something that private interests could not accomplish. I dunno. Cannon has been run more like a private business more and more lately.

I disagree - there are certain constitutional requirements in place that require some form of government. The state has too many properties and not enough income...one could almost compare NH to the American Ski Company a few years ago - most properties and program can be argued by some to be successful in some way, but as a net whole, it's a big mess and something needs to give.

They couldn't possibly widen trails any more, discounts are already offered to NH residents. 7 day tram operation could be a benefit. What else? I just don't see the benefits out weighing the cons.

I just like the vibe at Cannon. I just don't want the place to feel like Loon. To me, that is what it all comes down to. Fear of the resortification of the place.

I wasn't so much talking about benefits as I was guarantees - in other words, making sure that people didn't see the state-owned product running out of control (your concerns in the second quote). The state would need to be very specific in a lease document (especially spelling out that no footprint expansions could be made, or that no real estate developments could be co-marketed, essentially in effort to avoid the mess created with the proposed Sunapee development).

Cannon seems to be holding its own recently from a financial perspective

I don't think they've released 2009-2010 numbers, but the picture they've painted is not comparable. Cannon was, in pushing for their overpriced lift, pointing at back to back profitable seasons, saying they had turned the corner. In fact, those two seasons were two of the best for the New England ski industry in recent years. Regardless of that, Cannon doesn't have to pay property tax or any sizable debt service, which are two of the largest expenses for many privately owned ski areas...it's almost like someone bragging about running a 5 minute mile, using their time for one lap around the track vs. everyone else doing a full mile.

I just think there are bigger fish to fry if the state is that bad off financially... especially since part of making them bad off was their investment into the infrastructure.

There are, but the state has been ignoring these issues long enough that it now not only needs to fix many of these mistakes, but also needs a large financial infusion just to keep going.

Would not want a single tax break if it meant killing the spirit of the mountain.

This is not about politics or tax breaks at this point - the state has added dozens of new taxes and fees in the past few years and yet is staring at the largest deficit in history. New taxes - ones that will really harm the New Hampshire ski industry - are on the table right now, including an income and sales tax for everyone. Even with those, the state would still not get the immediate cash infusion necessary to operate (nevermind the medium to long term drop in revenue they would produce).

The state needs to cut, cut, cut and simplify. It's time to get out of one of the highest risk, lowest ROI industries in New England.

 

[deadheadskier]

In looking at the mission statement of NH State Parks, I don't see anywhere where the parks are supposed to benefit tax payers monetarily.

http://www.nhstateparks.org/who-we-are/division/mission-and-vision.aspx

In fact, NH is the only State in the Nation where the parks do not receive some state aid from general funds. The reality is that the parks of every state in the Nation run at a deficit and can't support operations through usage fees. The fact that NH has been alone in not using general funds to offset operating expenses tells me that overall 'we' do a pretty good job of managing the system financially.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/792860-196/financing-state-parks.html

I'm not sure where the funds come from for Capital Improvements to State Parks. So, the infrastructure improvements at Cannon could very well have come from the general fund. As Rivercoil said, if we've already invested all this money in Cannon, why hand it over right now to a private business to profit from that investment?

I'm open to the idea of a lease to a private entity if the resident advantages of Season Passes are preserved. Right now, Cannon offers one of the best value resident passes in New England. I'd be all over that pass if I lived in the 93 Corridor. Did Sunapee offer the same when it was state run? Best I can tell now is you can get an 'okay' deal on Sunday afternoon tickets.

I'd be interested to see what they could lease it for compared to the potential liability for taxpayers in a bad year. Ultimately whatever that dollar amount is will be 100% invested back into the operating budget of the park system. If that means we can sustain the operating budget of the park system without using general funds, great.

This all said, if someone told me that $100 / random $$$ of my proporty taxes were going to support the State Park System I'd be perfectly fine with that. It's par for the course in every state. That's why we have Parks; for public enjoyment, not for tax revenue.