The Dismantling Begins

[threecy]

I thought the most of the money for this came from the Sunapee lease over the last two years. I think I read that somewhere.

Sunapee on average sends the state ~$500K per season - base fee around $150K every year, then 3% of gross.

Meanwhile, the State Parks division is in debt to the tune of 7 figures and has broken even very few times in the past two decades. Taxpayers are on the hook for that.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...a lot of the development at those areas is a done deal - ie sold and paid and thus not providing direct additional revenues. Similar to the Mittersill real estate.

I would venture a guess that if the state offered Cannon for lease with similar provisions with Sunapee (and specifically named what they could and couldn't do), there would be suitors.

I see where you are coming from--what I was saying is that the business models are different because Cannon has no condos or real estate developments while the others do.

 

[thetrailboss]

For those interested, here is an article from the Union Leader along with an interesting photo:

And one select quote:

Cannon Mountain General Manager John DeVivo said the acquisition of Mittersill, has brought the ski area "back from extinction and brought it to the forefront."

Bald also acknowledged that Cannon and Mittersill evoke a great deal of affection in the Franconia Notch area.

"It is someplace special," he said. "It is deep in the heart of a lot of people."

The legislature last year approved setting aside $3 million in the capital budget for the construction of a double chairlift.

Earlier this summer, the old lift came down, making way for the new chairlift. When a video was posted on Cannon Mountain's Facebook page earlier this month, skiers were divided, with some feeling a sense of loss for the back-country ski experience and others enthusiastic for the new opportunities that will be available.

"Because of the 50-50 sentiment, it adds to the allure of Mittersill," DeVivo said.

 

[deadheadskier]

Sunapee on average sends the state ~$500K per season - base fee around $150K every year, then 3% of gross.

Meanwhile, the State Parks division is in debt to the tune of 7 figures and has broken even very few times in the past two decades. Taxpayers are on the hook for that.

link regarding the debt / finances?

The article I posted stated that NH funds all State Park operations through usage fees, NOT through taxpayer funding. Only State in the Nation where this is true.

I can see your beef with the 2.6M coming from tax payers. You must be five times as mad about the Hampton Beach Redevelopment. That project comes at a tune of 12.8M.

 

[threecy]

link regarding the debt / finances?

Burried in various PDFs and stuff. The debt the State Parks carries is featured in a lot of their documents, as they apparently carry it forward as a deficit each subsequent year and thus call it out.

 

[SIKSKIER]

Cannon Mt itself is profitable.

Meanwhile, the State Parks division is in debt to the tune of 7 figures and has broken even very few times in the past two decades. Taxpayers are on the hook for that.

Almost any state park runs in the red.You are are arguing against yourself when you say Cannon shows a profit in any year.Like most government run entities,its difficult to understand their numbers.For decades,Cannons profit/loss had been thrown in with the whole Franconia Notch State Park summer operations which are all in the red.The Winter operations at Cannon have almost always shown a profit.If you leased Cannon I'd bet the leasor would not have to absorb the losses of the summer attractions.

 

[threecy]

Almost any state park runs in the red.

There was a counterargument here that taxpayers were not paying for the state parks. Taxpayers are obviously on the hook for the debt.

The Winter operations at Cannon have almost always shown a profit.

That'd be news to a lot of people...source?

 

[drjeff]

link regarding the debt / finances?

The article I posted stated that NH funds all State Park operations through usage fees, NOT through taxpayer funding. Only State in the Nation where this is true.

I can see your beef with the 2.6M coming from tax payers. You must be five times as mad about the Hampton Beach Redevelopment. That project comes at a tune of 12.8M.

What it all comes down to is the PERCEIVED economic value that our legislators think(and I know that putting the words "legislators" and "think" side by side might be a bit of an oxymoron ) will be brought to the immediate area and the state in general when they choose to fund "public" projects

 

[SIKSKIER]

There was a counterargument here that taxpayers were not paying for the state parks. Taxpayers are obviously on the hook for the debt.


That'd be news to a lot of people...source?

I've been friends with the last 3 mountain managers going back close to 15 years and heard it right from their mouths.Is that good enough for you?I doubt it.

 

[threecy]

I've been friends with the last 3 mountain managers going back close to 15 years and heard it right from their mouths.Is that good enough for you?I doubt it.

According to a report using state records published by Dartmouth College:

Based on state accounting records, during the five ski seasons ending fiscal 2006, Cannon’s winter operations were profitable in three years, unprofitable in two, and generated a cumulative loss of roughly $532,000 . Because earnings in positive years were modest, and losses in bad years – such as 2005-2006 – were severe, Cannon generated a cumulative deficit despite the fact that it was profitable in more than half of the seasons analyzed.

 

[Smellytele]

Okay what ever

Let's move on to skiing instead of this useless battle because no one is going to change their minds so it seems.

 

[SIKSKIER]

Back on topic

I'll be at Mittersill this weekend and will post a progress report next week.

 

[thetrailboss]

Let's move on to skiing instead of this useless battle because no one is going to change their minds so it seems.

It's moot because the lift is going in as we speak.....

 

[threecy]

It's moot because the lift is going in as we speak.....

I disagree that it's moot...without diving directly into politics, there's a chance the Mittersill lift and Cannon lease could become an election issue this fall.

The $2.6 million came out of the state capital budget, not the state parks budget.

The capital budget is prepared by the Governor, who is running for re-election, and approved by the General Court, of which all seats are up for election.

With a budget shortfall in the hundreds of millions, serious consideration will be made to putting Cannon up for lease. With a recommendation due in only a few months, this may draw some attention this election cycle.

 

[deadheadskier]

whooptidoo

so say they get 500K for it. that's 10 state police cruisers. By all means carry on, but the amount of focus you are placing on a drop in the bucket in terms of the state budget is really mind blowing.

 

[threecy]

whooptidoo

so say they get 500K for it. that's 10 state police cruisers. By all means carry on, but the amount of focus you are placing on a drop in the bucket in terms of the state budget is really mind blowing.

The first decade or so of the Sunapee lease gave the state $4.5 million in revenues. In that same period of time, Cannon was costing the state hundreds of thousands of dollars in operation losses. In addition, millions have been spent on capital improvements. If you start putting those numbers together, you'll see the cost gap between the two state-owned areas in that time is over $10M. Compare that to NH park system's carry-over $1.8M debt in 2009.

 

[deadheadskier]

With a budget shortfall in the hundreds of millions, serious consideration will be made to putting Cannon up for lease. .

These are your words.

Hundreds of Millions.

500K is a drop in the bucket. I find it completely amazing that you, one single tax payer, is so driven to see this go through for such a small amount of money in the grand scheme things.

 

[threecy]

These are your words.

Hundreds of Millions.

500K is a drop in the bucket. I find it completely amazing that you, one single tax payer, is so driven to see this go through for such a small amount of money in the grand scheme things.

I'm not sure what's not making sense? The overall projected state budget deficit right now is nine figures. The state park budget has also been in deficit, in seven figures.

To the state park budget, seeing a guaranteed source of hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue, as opposed to a potential risk of hundreds of thousands of dollars of losses, is huge.

To the overall state budget, not being responsible for millions in future capital budget investments is huge. In addition, the possibility not being on the hook for annual deficits from the park serivce is helpful as well.

The state government is in very rough shape. If one thinks Cannon, which has seen tens of millions of dollars of investments over the years without a reasonable ROI, is a drop in the bucket, I suspect s/he will be very surprised in the coming year at how many smaller items will come under scrutiny.

 

[deadheadskier]

Because it's a State Park. I don't view State Parks as profit centers. You've other state parks in the system that lose money every year. Do I want to see Odiorne taken over by a Private Enterprise? I do not.

Read the mission of the Park system. NO WHERE does it say anything about the state making financial gains from the parks. It's a slippery slope heading down that path that I don't want to see happen.

 

[threecy]

Because it's a State Park. I don't view State Parks as profit centers. You've other state parks in the system that lose money every year. Do I want to see Odiorne taken over by a Private Enterprise? I do not.

Read the mission of the Park system. NO WHERE does it say anything about the state making financial gains from the parks. It's a slippery slope heading down that path that I don't want to see happen.

Right now, millions of dollars are going to Cannon that could otherwise, perhaps, serve those parks.

While some in Concord may not be fans of Sunapee, virtually none can dispute how much the lease has helped the ski area, the local economy, and other state properties. Lease arrangements can be very easily made to preserve the core and character of Cannon, while also helping the rest of the state.