Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[ski_resort_observer]

Skier visits != ticket sales and != revenue and != profit.
.

This statement is not exactly true......a skier visit can include, severly discounted group tiks, staff tiks, comp tiks and season pass skiers/riders. While some of these do indirectly increase revenue, to say every skier visit equates to profits is not true.

 

[threecy]

Skier visits != ticket sales and != revenue and != profit.

This statement is not exactly true......a skier visit can include, severly discounted group tiks, staff tiks, comp tiks and season pass skiers/riders. While some of these do indirectly increase revenue, to say every skier visit equates to profits is not true.

!= means "not equal to"

 

[bobbutts]

I'll step up and defend threecy here. Why? Because he gets under the skin of the most annoying posters here. He's like the Julian Assange of NH ski politics.

 

[AdironRider]

I know that most ski resorts do not look at the price of a holiday lift ticket window rate and base their budget off those numbers multiplied by total skier visits. Hell my fiancee is expected to comp a couple hundred tickets herself yearly for goodwill, promos, etc.

Im pretty sure the mtn would rather have as many people there buying their higher profit margin services, notably f&b and ski school, and depending on the resort rental and retail. Rentals have probably the highest margins for a ski resort, as most of those janky skis are years old and only cost em 150-200 bucks a pair wholesale. 4 days of rentals and theyve made their money back on the capital purchase, then just need to cover the minimum wage guys handing em out and tuning. Gravy.

Season pass holders support f&b primarily, along with everyone else. Discounted groups blow up ski school, rich day ticketers rental and retail plus ski school.

Skier visits is all about how many opportunities does the resort have to sell services, not just a strict bottom line figure.

 

[campgottagopee]

I'll step up and defend threecy here. Why? Because he gets under the skin of the most annoying posters here. He's like the Julian Assange of NH ski politics.

Politics isn't allowed on AZ, or is it.

 

[threecy]

Im pretty sure the mtn would rather have as many people there buying their higher profit margin services, notably f&b and ski school, and depending on the resort rental and retail.

Cannon loses money on its ski school.

 

[MadPadraic]

My question was in regard to profit, not revenue. Also, I should be more specific and say a New England ski school, as western operations tend to differ.

Maybe you'll notice that I didn't claim revenue were profits and specifically highlighted that we didn't know the cost of running it? I was hoping someone could provide context on this. Perhaps even you know the costs of running a ski school.

The Cannon P&L statement has winter and summer operations broken out.

Yes, and I was specifically referencing two separate reports which indicate that Cannon's winter operations carry many of the costs of the summer operations, which distorts the P&L of both.

Cannon loses money on its ski school.

Would you be willing to provide a source?

 

[MadPadraic]

I'll step up and defend threecy here. Why? Because he gets under the skin of the most annoying posters here. He's like the Julian Assange of NH ski politics.

That's mean.

 

[threecy]

Would you be willing to provide a source?

Not at this time, but you can inquire in Concord and pay the per-page fee to obtain the records.

 

[AdironRider]

Then I highly doubt it. Margins on ski school are absurd. They pay an instructor max 20 bucks an hour, then rape the customer on pricing. Theres little overhead besides labor, credit card processing fees, and a check in area. I know the resorts out here make their nut on ski school.

 

[threecy]

Then I highly doubt it. Margins on ski school are absurd. They pay an instructor max 20 bucks an hour, then rape the customer on pricing. Theres little overhead besides labor, credit card processing fees, and a check in area. I know the resorts out here make their nut on ski school.

You can find a few years of Cannon's ski school performance here per a link posted earlier in this thread:
http://nhstateparks.org/uploads/pdf/Appendix 1 - SB5 Legislation and Report.pdf

The absurd margin on $1,386,913 in revenue resulted in a $122K loss in the years in that chart

 

[AdironRider]

You can find a few years of Cannon's ski school performance here per a link posted earlier in this thread:
http://nhstateparks.org/uploads/pdf/Appendix 1 - SB5 Legislation and Report.pdf

The absurd margin on $1,386,913 in revenue resulted in a $122K loss in the years in that chart

First off, that data applies only up to 2005, thats 6 years old. Hardly applicable currently. Also, all 5 years show Cannon, with the Tram and Flume being extremely profitable. Tram is going with a Cannon lease, and I highly doubt anyone with any smarts would lease the place without the flume. Those are summer ops, and should definitely be included, excluding them is a politicians trick, but your a pro at that. Every other ski lease has summer ops, Wildcat has a zip line, Attitash is the best at it with everything under the sun, etc. Thats part of running a ski area, summer ops. Excluding those is hogwash.

Second, only two of 5 years ski school is showing a loss. With all 5 years showing Cannon in the black with a total net gain of over 3 million including summer operations. Sure individual departments are showing losses, but any business shows that. You want it to show that. They are called loss leaders. You need something to write off.

Theres no breakdown for overhead in those charts. Wheres there insurance liability? Wheres Utilities? This data youve provided is not thorough enough or anywhere near current enough for you to argue and say Cannon loses money on ski school, when regardless, even with your outdated and simplistic data, the majority of years they are profitable in ski school alone.

My fiancee runs ski school for Jhole, they make rediculous profit on just ski school, but their books look worse due to loss generators and accounting tricks. It is a business after all. Im an accountant, I highly doubt ski school, with the lowest overhead of any ski resort department, is posting massive losses. Im willing to bet theyve lumped a large portion of their insurance premiums there to generate a loss leader, either that or capital projects. I do the books for this type of stuff, this is just as common as you claiming deductions for your mortgage and other expenditures on your taxes, just a little more detailed.

Id love to see a current balance sheet for Cannon to get the real picture. But either way your data is old and outdated and data the better part of a decade old shows little to me at this point. To use this as accounting evidence to support a lease is laughable. An auditor wouldnt even ask to see income statements from 6 years ago, thats ancient history. Outside of depreciating lifts and buildings, nothing from FY 2005 even remotely applies currently from a business standpoint.

 

[MadPadraic]

I'm an NH resident who would rather see Cannon leased. It would ensure steady positive cash flows for a fixed period of time. It's something that operating the mountain simply cannot guarantee. Furthermore, if one wants to play the "benevolent leader" card, the Mt. Sunapee lease demonstrated that leasing a ski area can provide more benefit for the resort's surrounding communities than with state ownership.

Are you worried at all about Cannon's character or charm being changed? Would you feel the same way if the state didn't have larger financial problems?

 

[EPB]

Are you worried at all about Cannon's character or charm being changed? Would you feel the same way if the state didn't have larger financial problems?

The vibe wouldn't change all that much, especially to the occasional visitor. The weather will still make Cannon feel like it always has, and the Mittersill build-out is the only significant terrain alteration that would happen. Changes to Mittersill might happen regardless, though. Maybe the lodges will be remodeled, which would be cause for nostalgia. The threat of real estate around the area is also a possibility, though I don't know enough about real estate prospects in the area to comment.

I would feel bad for the locals/regulars because they are the ones that have a real connection with Cannon's charm. On the flip-side, almost everyone deals with a change of ownership/management/vibe at their favorite ski areas. As far as I'm concerned, they can get in line like the rest of us. The fact that the area is state owned is irrelevant to the matter of charm as I see it. Certainly others feel differently, and I have little intent to argue about it because it wouldn't be worth anyone's time.

 

[EPB]

Only if you're a landlord or someone who has a business nearby.

Isn't that precisely the point?

Why did you leave out additional employees that could be hired by said prospering "businesses nearby"? Aren't they positively affected?

Who did you think was supposed to benefit from Mt. Sunapee, and how have they been wronged by private ownership?

 

[jack97]

.....I would feel bad for the locals/regulars because they are the ones that have a real connection with Cannon's charm.

my POV, it comes down to this..... "uniqueness" or "sameness".


I go to a place like Whaleback, Ragged, MRG and to a certain extent Cannon.... it feels unique.

I go to a places like Okemo, BW and Sunapee (before they seed), its feel like a shopping mall. Once inside, they all look the same.

 

[threecy]

First off, that data applies only up to 2005, thats 6 years old. Hardly applicable currently. Also, all 5 years show Cannon, with the Tram and Flume being extremely profitable. Tram is going with a Cannon lease, and I highly doubt anyone with any smarts would lease the place without the flume. Those are summer ops, and should definitely be included, excluding them is a politicians trick, but your a pro at that. Every other ski lease has summer ops, Wildcat has a zip line, Attitash is the best at it with everything under the sun, etc. Thats part of running a ski area, summer ops. Excluding those is hogwash.

Second, only two of 5 years ski school is showing a loss. With all 5 years showing Cannon in the black with a total net gain of over 3 million including summer operations. Sure individual departments are showing losses, but any business shows that. You want it to show that. They are called loss leaders. You need something to write off.

Theres no breakdown for overhead in those charts. Wheres there insurance liability? Wheres Utilities? This data youve provided is not thorough enough or anywhere near current enough for you to argue and say Cannon loses money on ski school, when regardless, even with your outdated and simplistic data, the majority of years they are profitable in ski school alone.

My fiancee runs ski school for Jhole, they make rediculous profit on just ski school, but their books look worse due to loss generators and accounting tricks. It is a business after all. Im an accountant, I highly doubt ski school, with the lowest overhead of any ski resort department, is posting massive losses. Im willing to bet theyve lumped a large portion of their insurance premiums there to generate a loss leader, either that or capital projects. I do the books for this type of stuff, this is just as common as you claiming deductions for your mortgage and other expenditures on your taxes, just a little more detailed.

Id love to see a current balance sheet for Cannon to get the real picture. But either way your data is old and outdated and data the better part of a decade old shows little to me at this point. To use this as accounting evidence to support a lease is laughable. An auditor wouldnt even ask to see income statements from 6 years ago, thats ancient history. Outside of depreciating lifts and buildings, nothing from FY 2005 even remotely applies currently from a business standpoint.

The link I posted was not 'data I've provided' but rather something that had been posted earlier in the thread, since you were doubting my statement that the Cannon ski school loses money. Until FY08, the only significant costs associated with the ski school revenue are payroll and benefits.

The chart gives you half a decade of information demonstrating that they show losses in a high margin section of the business - now you're trying to disregard that data.

More detailed data is available if you're willing to go to Concord and pay money for it.

 

[threecy]

I go to a place like Whaleback, Ragged, MRG and to a certain extent Cannon.... it feels unique.

I go to a places like Okemo, BW and Sunapee (before they seed), its feel like a shopping mall. Once inside, they all look the same.

It's funny to talk about that, considering the wide boulevards that have been cut by the government at Cannon (how about that Profile trail?), as well as what's been done at Mittersill.

Fortunately there are people in Concord who don't make important financial decisions based soley upon feelings.

 

[jack97]

It's funny to talk about that, considering the wide boulevards that have been cut by the government at Cannon (how about that Profile trail?), as well as what's been done at Mittersill.

Fortunately there are people in Concord who don't make important financial decisions based soley upon feelings.

Fortunately as well, there are people using present data instead of data tabulated 6 years agos

I think Profile is the widest trail, and they widening that long ago. What had made Cannon unique in the past was it's wildness. With the new manager, they have made this into a family place with high value, remember that $20 to $36 saving and even more on two midweeks. Last time I went to Cannon, it reminded me of your old stomping ground, Berkshire East, place was cold and had hardpack all over, the charm was the layout, the lodge and the people. Lots of family, parents spending the day with the kids.... everyone was down to earth. Nuthing plastic about the place, I got close to that same vibe at Cannon.

 

[AdironRider]

Fortunately there are people in Concord who don't make important financial decisions based soley upon feelings.

So even with your shitty old data, which shows FNSP and Cannon having earned the taxpayers of the state 3 million+ in gross profit, Im not sure I get your point.