"Artificial" Open Bowl Skiing in the East

[skiersleft]

Sugarloaf is the only ski area in the East that offers open bowl skiing a la what's offered in Western resorts. And still, it's not exactly like Western resorts, as the area of above the tree line skiing is not really that extensive. You can, of course, go to Tuck's or some other backcountry to have the experience, but I'm talking about lift served open bowl skiing.

Why don't more eastern ski areas remove all the trees from the summit of some of their peaks in order to replicate an open bowl skiing experience. Don't get me wrong, I love tree skiing and classic New England trails. Much more character than wide freeways. However, there is something quite exhilarating and beautiful about wide open bowl skiing.

Is it just illegal to do something like this or do ski areas just have no interest in doing this?

 

[Nick]

I'm guessing it's impossible from an ecological perspective. Despite public outcry you'd also have to contend with other issues like no wind buffers and erosion especially in the spring.

I'm guessing most above-tree line places have already "settled in" to being above treeline. To just deforest it would be very tricky to do right, I'm guessing.

Although it would be kinda fun to have an entire mountain with no trees and fresh powder down all sides :lol:

 

[skiersleft]

I'm guessing it's impossible from an ecological perspective. Despite public outcry you'd also have to contend with other issues like no wind buffers and erosion especially in the spring.

I'm guessing most above-tree line places have already "settled in" to being above treeline. To just deforest it would be very tricky to do right, I'm guessing.

Although it would be kinda fun to have an entire mountain with no trees and fresh powder down all sides :lol:

I guess it probably has to do with ecological reasons, but it's still unclear to me why you can't do it on a small scale. Say, for example, at the top of Snowdon at Killington. It's one of six peaks. You can shave the first 300 or 400 vertical and provide an open bowl skiing experience down one third of the peak. I can see why an entire mountain would be a daunting task, but perhaps it's more doable for just a portion of a peak.

Agree that it would be fun to have this kind of skiing over here.

 

[Puck it]

They would have every eco society on them.

 

[WJenness]

They would have every eco society on them.

Also, with they typical weather patterns hear in the east, you'd be talking about a sheer face of ice that MIGHT be covered in enough powder to ski once a season.

The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.

It makes no sense.

-w

 

[skiersleft]

Also, with they typical weather patterns hear in the east, you'd be talking about a sheer face of ice that MIGHT be covered in enough powder to ski once a season.

The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.

It makes no sense.

-w

This is a good point. Though it's nothing that all out snowmaking can't remedy to some extent! And some eastern ski resorts actually do get a decent amount of powder. Jay, Stowe and Smuggs are three good examples. I'm not proposing we do this at Elk Mountain, PA (nothing against Elk, BTW). Furthermore, the ice will begin to melt in the spring and then we'll have wide open bowl CORN skiing instead of ice skating.

 

[Nick]

Also, with they typical weather patterns hear in the east, you'd be talking about a sheer face of ice that MIGHT be covered in enough powder to ski once a season.

The winds out here that typically follow / happen during storms would scour any open area like that in a heartbeat.

It makes no sense.

-w

Along with that you probably set yourself up for slides and / or avalanche risk as well when you open it up more like that? Just a guess. I'm not a snow physicist :dunce:

 

[WJenness]

skiersleft...

I'm guessing you don't understand the 'business' side of eastern ski areas, do you?

Doing that would be financial suicide.

-w

 

[thetrailboss]

Sugarloaf is the only ski area in the East that offers open bowl skiing a la what's offered in Western resorts. And still, it's not exactly like Western resorts, as the area of above the tree line skiing is not really that extensive. You can, of course, go to Tuck's or some other backcountry to have the experience, but I'm talking about lift served open bowl skiing.

Why don't more eastern ski areas remove all the trees from the summit of some of their peaks in order to replicate an open bowl skiing experience. Don't get me wrong, I love tree skiing and classic New England trails. Much more character than wide freeways. However, there is something quite exhilarating and beautiful about wide open bowl skiing.

Is it just illegal to do something like this or do ski areas just have no interest in doing this?

Two words for Vermont: Act 250.

 

[skiersleft]

skiersleft...

I'm guessing you don't understand the 'business' side of eastern ski areas, do you?

Doing that would be financial suicide.

-w

So the main reason in your opinion is financial. Fair enough.

 

[skiersleft]

BTW, the beginner area at the bottom of Spruce Peak at Stowe has a somewhat weird open bowl-ly like feel to it.

Granted, it's crappy terrain, almost no pitch and chock full of beginners, but the area does feel quite wide and there are no trees in sight for a good portion of the terrain. Is the terrain naturally like this or was it done like this on purpose?

 

[thetrailboss]

BTW, the beginner area at the bottom of Spruce Peak at Stowe has a somewhat weird open bowl-ly like feel to it.

Granted, it's crappy terrain, almost no pitch and chock full of beginners, but the area does feel quite wide and there are no trees in sight for a good portion of the terrain. Is the terrain naturally like this or was it done like this on purpose?

That's right. That area was designed to be open like that back in the 1940's and 1950's to take advantage of the sun. There are other areas that are open like that to be somewhat like western areas.

This idea certainly has impacted ski area design. In the 1980's because of consumer demands a lot of trails were widened and flattened for ease of snowmaking and grooming but also because folks demanded 'western' like skiing. Example: Killington's Canyon Area.

 

[deadheadskier]

BTW, the beginner area at the bottom of Spruce Peak at Stowe has a somewhat weird open bowl-ly like feel to it.

Granted, it's crappy terrain, almost no pitch and chock full of beginners, but the area does feel quite wide and there are no trees in sight for a good portion of the terrain. Is the terrain naturally like this or was it done like this on purpose?

That was done on purpose as was how wide open they made Main Street at the top of Spruce Peak. All of Spruce was constructed with an eye towards mimicking the wide open terrain in Austria. It didn't work well as the lack of trees on Main Street caused all of the natural snow to blow off into the woods.

I think that's your number 1 reason right there as to why there isn't 'artificial bowl skiing' in the East. Snow Retention. You would have to have topography like Mt. Washington / Tux where the snow gets blown off the top of a ridgeline and deposited into a bowl below.

 

[skiersleft]

That's right. That area was designed to be open like that back in the 1940's and 1950's to take advantage of the sun. There are other areas that are open like that to be somewhat like western areas.

This idea certainly has impacted ski area design. In the 1980's because of consumer demands a lot of trails were widened and flattened for ease of snowmaking and grooming but also because folks demanded 'western' like skiing. Example: Killington's Canyon Area.

What other areas in the east are similar to the spruce beginner area in terms of wide expanses of treeless terrain? The Canyon at Killington has wide trails, but not even close to the wideness of spruce peak's beginner trails.

 

[skiersleft]

That was done on purpose as was how wide open they made Main Street at the top of Spruce Peak. All of Spruce was constructed with an eye towards mimicking the wide open terrain in Austria. It didn't work well as the lack of trees on Main Street caused all of the natural snow to blow off into the woods.

I think that's your number 1 reason right there as to why there isn't 'artificial bowl skiing' in the East. Snow Retention. You would have to have topography like Mt. Washington / Tux where the snow gets blown off the top of a ridgeline and deposited into a bowl below.

Makes sense. Would it be more feasible to do it in the lower part of the mountains then? Less wind, less pitch, more snow retention? Perhaps that's why it more or less works at the bottom part of Spruce and sucks higher up by Main Street.

 

[deadheadskier]

Okemo's beginner area is somewhat similar to Spruce.

 

[deadheadskier]

Makes sense. Would it be more feasible to do it in the lower part of the mountains then? Less wind, less pitch, more snow retention? Perhaps that's why it more or less works at the bottom part of Spruce and sucks higher up by Main Street.

I think it would, but the problem you'd run into would be the added cost of snowmaking to cover that terrain. Other thing to factor is is there are very few mountains in the East where there is significant steep terrain near the base. Cannon comes to mind. Actually Cannon's Front Five are super wide as is and I've often wonder why they did that instead of having narrower runs with glades in between. Even though low on the mountain, those trails get wind scoured pretty badly. Narrower trails and more trees would really help the conditions there.

 

[wa-loaf]

Learn to ski in the trees.

 

[thetrailboss]

What other areas in the east are similar to the spruce beginner area in terms of wide expanses of treeless terrain? The Canyon at Killington has wide trails, but not even close to the wideness of spruce peak's beginner trails.

Pretty much Stowe is the only one I can think of at this point and it is because, as DHS said, they were aiming to make it like Austria and make it different from the narrow treed in runs of the rest of the Northeast. Other "open," or formerly open areas of that era include possibly Cranmore.

Killington's wider terrain is from a much later era and again was in response to folks who skied out west and wanted wider terrain back east. So this monstrosity is due to that demand:

Before:

After (far right):

 

[skiersleft]

Learn to ski in the trees.

Thanks for the advice. I already know how to ski in the trees, though. It's actually my favorite kind of skiing. Along with open bowl skiing, of course! Some of us would like to be able to do both without going out west or hiking up to Tucks. Sugarloaf, it seems is the only option.