Ye Olde East V. West discussion

[greenjay]

I am new and sorry if I missed this thread somewhere, but I have never skied in the west and have a few questions.

I have been skiing about 10 years and am an advanced intermediate skier who likes long cruising trails, not extreme vertical drops or moguls. I usually ski in southern VT, where I live; sometimes Mont Tremblant.

1) Stratton (just for example) says their longest run is 3 miles. Telluride says their longest is 4.6 and snowbird in UT is just 2.5. Are these western resorts typical of trail length? If the Western mtns are 3 times as big, shouldn't their runs be 3 times as long? Or does it not work this way? Maybe the mountains are just bigger all-around, i.e. more trails?

2) If have been skiing east for 10 years, will western skiing seem easier, since it is not icy, or more difficult, since powder sometimes "grabs" the skis? Is the texture of powder slicker or stickier?

3) Do you eastern skiers going west find that you have to take a day to adjust to the high altitude?

4) Has anyone driven from the east coast to UT or CO? Flying too expensive for us, and wondering of the practicality of driving west in winter or even spring.

And anyone who wants to make a pitch for your fave/best Western mountain for intermediate skiers, go ahead!

thanks!

 

[VTKilarney]

I'll take a stab at this.

1) Probably the biggest factor is how the mountain itself is laid out. In the west, many larger ski areas have numerous peaks. While the overall vertical may be higher, this does not necessarily mean that you can ski all of it on a single trail. "Bigger" can mean different things - and not directly correlate to length of runs.

2) As a general proposition, on similarly steep terrain, skiing out west is easier than in the east. This is a good thing for those of us coming from the east. It's easier for us to transition. But keep in mind, these are generalities. The western resorts are more dependent on natural snow. East coast resorts are better at accommodating for bad snow years. So while you are statistically more likely to experience better conditions out west, your actual experience may vary. You should also keep in mind that the snow in different parts of the west can vary. The closer you get to the Pacific ocean, and the lower you get in elevation, the more moisture content in the snow.

3) I've never had a problem. None of my travel companions have, either.

4) I've driven to Montana in late December as part of a move, but I would never do it for a ski trip. It's winter. The odds of hitting a storm somewhere along the way is high. In spring you have to contend with the potential for severe thunderstorms. You are also driving across the most populated and then the most boring stretch of the country for almost the entire trip. (No offense, Great Plains residents! Just because your area is boring to drive through, does not mean that it is actually boring once you step out of the car!)

 

[greenjay]

Good point about driving. I still wonder if spring might be less dangerous. I know it's boring but I have family in the midwest, and flying is just so expensive. Thanks for the reply!

 

[skiNEwhere]

I am new and sorry if I missed this thread somewhere, but I have never skied in the west and have a few questions.

I have been skiing about 10 years and am an advanced intermediate skier who likes long cruising trails, not extreme vertical drops or moguls. I usually ski in southern VT, where I live; sometimes Mont Tremblant.

1) Stratton (just for example) says their longest run is 3 miles. Telluride says their longest is 4.6 and snowbird in UT is just 2.5. Are these western resorts typical of trail length? If the Western mtns are 3 times as big, shouldn't their runs be 3 times as long? Or does it not work this way? Maybe the mountains are just bigger all-around, i.e. more trails?

2) If have been skiing east for 10 years, will western skiing seem easier, since it is not icy, or more difficult, since powder sometimes "grabs" the skis? Is the texture of powder slicker or stickier?

3) Do you eastern skiers going west find that you have to take a day to adjust to the high altitude?

4) Has anyone driven from the east coast to UT or CO? Flying too expensive for us, and wondering of the practicality of driving west in winter or even spring.

And anyone who wants to make a pitch for your fave/best Western mountain for intermediate skiers, go ahead!

thanks!

Hey greenjay,

I'm not too sure of #1 as I usually don't pay attention to trail length. I know brecks four o clock trail is like 4.5 miles (off the top of my head), but I believe they are broken up into upper middle and lower. I think a lot of other ski areas break up their trails.

There is definitely less ice out here, I think that actually makes you a better skier in the fact that if you do hit ice, you know to just ride it out and not panic.im not sure how to compare the pow based on your criteria, it is lighter for sure, I wouldn't really call it slick or sticky though

It really varies per person as far as altitude sickness goes. Wen I moved back into my house after being at just about sealevel for 5 months, I did have mild altitude sickness. my house is at about 10,100 ft elevation though. I would say the average base elevation of CO ski resorts is in the low 9,000's, and the peak elevation is 12,000. If you spend a day in Denver though I think you'll be ok. Like I said though it really varies per person. I've had friends from mass visit me and go from sealevel to 10,000 in a matter of 6-7 hours with no issues whatsoever

Driving west in winter is hit or miss. I was driving to keystone yesterday and the snow was so bad and sticking to the windshield that I had to use my windshield wiper every 5 seconds, not even exaggerating. My advice? Check the weather report. You do not want to drive cross country in bad weather.

EDIT: windshiwld wiper FLUID

 

[jimk]

East, west, north, south, it’s all great. I'm sure you'd love it if you took a trip west. Perhaps early to mid March would be a great time to go. Conditions will be at their peak in CO and UT while southern VT can often be winding down at that time. Although, there's still time to go this year. CO in particular is having a strong season. Some of the ski layouts are much bigger out west. The scale is bigger. Some have twice the vertical of Mt. Snow and three or four times as many trails. Actually, the word trail loses some meaning out there because many places have open bowl areas where there are no trees and you ski any line you want down hundreds of acres of hillside. Perhaps the greatest joy about western skiing for an intermediate is that much of the season is packed powder everywhere. Those higher elevation resorts just don't get as many of the ice-inducing rain events or freeze/thaw/freeze cycles we get in the East, at least not in the prime months of Jan, Feb and Mar. Perfect conditions aren't guaranteed out there, just much more likely. And it's not as bitingly cold either on many days. The altitude can be an issue especially for those going to a resort base at 9000'+ and for only three days. Just when you're acclimatized and over headaches and breathlessness it's time to go home. Go easy first day. My biggest piece of advice is once you've committed to making the trek out there - stay a while, for example a full week. With respect to driving,

I have a much differnt attitude about driving than many folks. I'm sort of a crazy roadtripper and have driven from Wash DC to CO or UT four out of the last six winters. I've also driven "short" 1200-2000 mile road trips almost every winter for decades to New England or Quebec. IMHO if you have two or three drivers it's a breeze, especially if you have family pit stops in the mid-west. Going to the Rockies I always stop one night each direction, so it eats up vacation time if you don't have much. Again, I'm kind of weird in that I have more vacation time then money and don't like to drop $500+ each for airfare for multiple family members. Only two years ago, however, I found airfares from DC to Denver for ~$140 rdtrp for ski trips. At that price it doesn't pay to drive and if flying to CO and UT many of the resorts are served by interstate highway and I don't bother renting expensive 4wd SUVs unless immediate forecast is for heavy snow day of arrival.
Long cruising trails recommendations: Snowmass is unparalleled for this. Beaver Creek, Keystone, Steamboat, Copper all good too. In UT perhaps Snowbasin is best for this.
PS: if you google "Colorado Road Trip Recap" you'll get an account of a recent western roadtrip we made. LINK: http://www.epicski.com/a/colorado-road-trip-recap

 

[abc]

I know it's boring but I have family in the midwest, and flying is just so expensive. Thanks for the reply!

When I used to live in the midwest, people routinely DRIVE to Colorado!

I still wonder if spring might be less dangerous.

Spring is "less" dangerous in that it tend to affect high elevation more than lower elevation passes.

 

[thetrailboss]

Boy, a lot of questions....so here goes.

I am new and sorry if I missed this thread somewhere, but I have never skied in the west and have a few questions.

I have been skiing about 10 years and am an advanced intermediate skier who likes long cruising trails, not extreme vertical drops or moguls. I usually ski in southern VT, where I live; sometimes Mont Tremblant.

1) Stratton (just for example) says their longest run is 3 miles. Telluride says their longest is 4.6 and snowbird in UT is just 2.5. Are these western resorts typical of trail length? If the Western mtns are 3 times as big, shouldn't their runs be 3 times as long? Or does it not work this way? Maybe the mountains are just bigger all-around, i.e. more trails?

Not always true. West mountains have higher bases (in general) and higher summit elevations. The vertical can be, more or less, similar with some notable exceptions (J-Hole, Snowbird, etc.) The length of a run can be similar or longer. It varies.

2) If have been skiing east for 10 years, will western skiing seem easier, since it is not icy, or more difficult, since powder sometimes "grabs" the skis? Is the texture of powder slicker or stickier?

It all depends. The biggest difference is that when it snows out here in the mountains it generally stays. We don't get rain or mixed crap at higher elevations during the middle of the season. We may get some in late, late spring and in the earlier season. So this translates into deeper bases. In terms of powder....it can vary in terms of texture depending on how dry the snow is. Snowbird and Alta generally get lots of dry snow that is light and beautiful. But we also get wetter snow and that is better for base building and covering the terrain. Is it easier to ski out here? We do get icing on snowmaking runs and on other main runs. Overall though surfaces are much softer and much more fun. It all depends on the weather when you visit.

The BIGGEST difference, so far that I've seen, is that the terrain is MUCH steeper out here because the snow is deeper and sticks to the slopes. Even cruisers are generally steeper out here. It will be an adjustment for you, especially if you go to places like Squaw, J-Hole, Snowbird, Alta, etc.

3) Do you eastern skiers going west find that you have to take a day to adjust to the high altitude?

It depends again. For skiing at Little Cottonwood or Big Cottonwood a day to adjust is a good idea. But the Park City areas have lower bases....about 7,000 or so. Mount Washington is 6,288 feet. It also depends on you personally. I now live out here so I don't notice the elevation as much, but when I hike in the summer at 9-11,000 feet you do indeed breath harder. The big thing is staying hydrated and just listening to your body is key.

4) Has anyone driven from the east coast to UT or CO? Flying too expensive for us, and wondering of the practicality of driving west in winter or even spring.

I drove cross-country for our move in October 2011. I did it solo. I could have done it in four days or so at my pace. I did not kill myself or do all nighters. I also had two kayaks on my car and a car full of odds and ends for our move. So I could not motor too fast. My route was 90 east to Chicago then down to Omaha and out 80 west through Nebraska and Wyoming. I was going to detour into Colorado and then go 70 through to Utah, but the weather changed my plans and forced me to stop in the panhandle of Nebraska to wait out a winter storm (driving in Wyoming can be very wild). Sidney became my basecamp...Cabela's included.

For a ski trip I would not drive cross-country personally. It is a long drive and if you are going to California, Utah, or Jackson Hole, you could be delayed by the weather or stopped dead in your tracks. I-80 in Wyoming is very exposed in places and subject to drifting and high winds. I-70 can close in Colorado for avalanche or heavy snow and it is a very windy road in places. Plus the drive does wear you out even before skiing.

Cheap flights to SLC can be easily had (Southwest, JetBlue, Delta). SLC Airport is 28-30 miles to Snowbird and Alta....and 35 miles or so to the Big Cottonwood areas or Park City. The drives are very easy if the weather is good and the state is on top of cleaning the roads for skiers/riders.

Denver, on the other hand, is a looooonng drive to good skiing relatively speaking and there is more traffic.

For intermediates: it depends on what you want to ski for terrain. In Utah some places that a blue skier might like would include most of the Park City areas (Deer Valley, Park City, Canyons) or Snowbasin. Alta would be okay for a day, but you would not be able to appreciate the best parts.

 

[Smellytele]

While not getting anything extreme I did notice the altitude. I felt light headed the first day of skiing in CO. A few times saw some neat colors when getting up too fast from buckling my boots but nothing too bad. Nothing after the first day.
As for driving vs flying. I found flights to Denver in Feb from New England for 200 bucks. I guess if you were driving non stop with 4 or 5 people you could do it for cheaper without hotels. I would kill someone if I had to be in a car with them for that long or they would kill me.

Not sure if I would call 2 hours loooooong to get to good skiing in CO from the airport. If you drove up on a Friday afternoon/evening or Saturday morning it would suck and take longer yes.

 

[Angus]

here are my quick observations and coincidentally I was thinking about this issue last weekend. Note: I've skied the majority of areas you'll typically find on the top 10 "most difficult North American mountains" lists.

1) going up the chair lift at Stowe last week, I was looking at the front four and comparing it to the terrain (steepness, size of bumps) at telluride where I'd skied earlier this month...my reaction was ho-hum.
2) the great equalizer for the east is snow conditions. ability to ski ice, hard pack, avoid stumps, rocks, etc. bumps are harder, more cut-off on side and back-side, etc.
3) in another thread, I noted a level of discomfort about some of the jay peak rabbit hole terrain...skiing woods/glades out west is great...steep, nicely spaced trees, good snow and coverage, et cetera.

once you get adjusted to the steepness in the west, east coast skiers are fine. long trails of the west are like skiing great eastern at killington...unbearable!

 

[Brad J]

Better natural snow out west allows you to ski steeper terrain, Prep yourself for the altitude by drinking plenty of water, 3x what you would at sea level

 

[snoseek]

As far as driving only do it if you plan on skiing 2 weeks or more, have a reliable car and partners to split the gas. I've driven across close to twenty times now and while 3149 miles every 6 months almost seems routine its a really really long drive. Be mentally prepared for that and have your shit together. No booze, no weed....don't even think about it, the Midwest can be rough.

As far as the vert most larger areas in he east hang close to the vert of midsized western resorts. It's less about lapping groomers IMO and it's all about the terrain and acreage. I could lap supreme at Alta all day no problem and its only like 1000k a lap.

There is ice out here, it happens. The sun turns snow sticky and freezes it sometimes. It's all about the north facing terrain. Utah gets the consistent snow, Colorado has the best snow preservation IMO. Tahoe is super hit or miss.

 

[snoseek]

BTW depending on what you drive gas can be expensive, maybe more so than flying. I spend 1500 a year just going back and forth and I drive a 4cyl Tacoma. Fly to Utah, ride the bus everywhere for free.....

 

[lerops]

I am new and sorry if I missed this thread somewhere, but I have never skied in the west and have a few questions.

I have been skiing about 10 years and am an advanced intermediate skier who likes long cruising trails, not extreme vertical drops or moguls. I usually ski in southern VT, where I live; sometimes Mont Tremblant.

1) Stratton (just for example) says their longest run is 3 miles. Telluride says their longest is 4.6 and snowbird in UT is just 2.5. Are these western resorts typical of trail length? If the Western mtns are 3 times as big, shouldn't their runs be 3 times as long? Or does it not work this way? Maybe the mountains are just bigger all-around, i.e. more trails?

2) If have been skiing east for 10 years, will western skiing seem easier, since it is not icy, or more difficult, since powder sometimes "grabs" the skis? Is the texture of powder slicker or stickier?

3) Do you eastern skiers going west find that you have to take a day to adjust to the high altitude?

4) Has anyone driven from the east coast to UT or CO? Flying too expensive for us, and wondering of the practicality of driving west in winter or even spring.

And anyone who wants to make a pitch for your fave/best Western mountain for intermediate skiers, go ahead!

thanks!

1. I wouldn't worry about trail length, especially the maximum. I think what happens is that in the East they build these long, winding, very flat green trails from the top like the Great Northern, which end up becoming very long trails in length. They cut across tens of trails, and are a PITA. The idea is seems to be that everybody, including beginners can go to the top of the mountain. Otherwise, probably green terrain would have been really boring. They don't bother in the West, because green trails from mid mountain is sufficient for beginners. Actually, it is rare to have green trails from the top of the mountain in the West. If you are interested in verticals, try this http://mountainvertical.com/. They try to true up to cut through the numbers.

2. I think that for what you will do, West will be very fun since the cruisers will be softer. As an intermediate, I went to Alta, and it was the best skiing ever for me. I didn't have to worry about ice, trail crowds, etc. I think it is easier not to worry. I did a few of their simple blacks, and that was easier to Eastern blacks too, again, due to snow conditions.

3. Uyah was fine for me, nbever been to CO, though. I think this one is genetic. Some folks are fine, others have problems.

4. nope.

As for recommendation, I'd go to Alta. You can also try tons of stuff. Over two weeks, I went to Snowbasin, Solitude each for one day, and skied Alta the rest of the time. It is that much fun. I was there mid-December. They had gomore snow than Stratton gets the whole season.

 

[St. Bear]

Your impression of easier or harder will depend on what you want to ski. I think the blacks out west are generally ungroomed, so if you're skiing groomed blacks here but struggle with bumps, you might think that it's harder out there (the old saying "a black in the east is a blue in the west").

However if you're looking for ungroomed terrain, I would argue the opposite, that you'll find it much easier going out west, due to what everybody has already said. I felt like a super skier in Colorado, came back and skied MRG, and felt like I sucked again.

As for the altitude, don't schedule anything for the first day you get there. I got dizzy and out of breath my first night in Colorado, stood up too quickly and threw up. I felt fine when I woke up the next morning, and besides occasional shortness of breath, I was fine the rest of the trip.

 

[abc]

I have been skiing about 10 years and am an advanced intermediate skier who likes long cruising trails, not extreme vertical drops or moguls. I usually ski in southern VT, where I live; sometimes Mont Tremblant.

1) Stratton (just for example) says their longest run is 3 miles. Telluride says their longest is 4.6 and snowbird in UT is just 2.5. Are these western resorts typical of trail length? If the Western mtns are 3 times as big, shouldn't their runs be 3 times as long? Or does it not work this way? Maybe the mountains are just bigger all-around, i.e. more trails?

If you like to cruise on groomed trails, a lot of the "big name" resorts out west will NOT be your best destination!

As mentioned by others, a lot of the western mountains tend not to groom their black. In fact, in many mountains, their "trails" aren't trails. They're just an entire face of the mountain that you go in whichever direction you fancy! So you can make YOUR trail long by winding your way down, or charge straight down and make it kind of short.

There're also many western mountain that has a lot of defined trails (Northstar, Deer Valley comes to mind, Steamboat also) but those tend NOT to be mentioned too much because that's usually not what many people spend the extra to go out west for.

Then, there're many, many more mountains that has a mixture of defined trail and open face skiing. The most well known is Vail: the front side all tree-lined trails, the "back bowls" are... well, open BOWLS!

2) If have been skiing east for 10 years, will western skiing seem easier, since it is not icy, or more difficult, since powder sometimes "grabs" the skis? Is the texture of powder slicker or stickier?

Different.

If you've never skied powder and you got a lot when out there, you may find yourself struggling. Or, if you usually don't do bumps, you may find many western mountains don't groom ANY of their black and only groom SOME of their blues. So it may be difficult for you to find yourself in one of such long bumpy stretch.

Or, if you have good technique and can handle some icy bumps of the east, albeit the smaller ones, you may find the softer snow out west makes everything a lot easier!

I like to tell the story of one of my earlier western trip (not my first, but perhaps the 2nd or 3rd trip west) when I was only a intermediate: I found myself standing on top of Copper bowl, which is "only" a single black, having to jump down the cornices to get started. On that particular day, the wind must have been strong the night before. The cornices looked HUGE! And I thought to myself "what @%$ for a single black???" (I jumped, fell, but the snow was soft, the rest of the bowl was nice)

3) Do you eastern skiers going west find that you have to take a day to adjust to the high altitude?

I ski the next day.

I also tried the "fly in the morning and ski the afternoon for free" deal twice. Both times felt pretty miserable. So I'm not too heart broken when Park City discontinued the deal.

And anyone who wants to make a pitch for your fave/best Western mountain for intermediate skiers, go ahead!

Tell us your favorite mountain and that'll give us a sense on what you like. What's my favorite maybe hell for you.

 

[BenedictGomez]

If you are interested in verticals, try this http://mountainvertical.com/. They try to true up to cut through the numbers.

That's cool as hell.

Funny how they use Smuggler's Notch as one of the "offending" poster children, I never knew they base their vert on the traverse to Morse!

 

[greenjay]

If you like to cruise on groomed trails, a lot of the "big name" resorts out west will NOT be your best destination!

I ski the next day.

I also tried the "fly in the morning and ski the afternoon for free" deal twice. Both times felt pretty miserable. So I'm not too heart broken when Park City discontinued the deal.

Tell us your favorite mountain and that'll give us a sense on what you like. What's my favorite maybe hell for you.

To be safe, groomed trails make much more sense.

Altitude - I might have a weird sensitivity here: I drove from NYC to Tremblant and skied the next morning - was very lightheaded, but just for one day. I also drove from midwest to AZ in 2 days, and went hiking down a canyon the next day… and collapsed at the bottom - dizzy, weak, nauseous etc. No one was sure if it was altitude or dehydration. But given what many people have said here, I don't think I will be rushing from car or plane directly to trail.

Anyway, fave trails in the east: Mt. Tremblant, though skiing in -20 I can do without. Stowe would be #2.

Thanks for all the replies, this is so helpful!!

 

[abc]

Of the most famous "groomer only" resorts, Northstar/Deer Valley/Steamboat all have low base elevation. You're safe there.

There's also Sun Valley, which I've never been to, and receives mixed review. That are famous for their groomers.

Personally, I think you should try one of those "mixed terrain" mountain(s), if only to get a taste of the much-sought-after open bowl skiing experience without committing to it. Vail being the biggest and has the most extensive of BOTH groomer and open bowl. The only problem with Vail is the high base elevation. Park City is a good option because you can try different mountain, some have long groomers and others have open bowl skiing (and not so high base)

You have another contradicting requirement if you want to drive: the closest western skiing is in Colorado, which has high base elevation. The only exception is Steamboat, which has lower base elevation, long groomers, not very crowded and quite good snow record. That should be your first choice if you decide to drive.

 

[mikestaple]

Steamboat. Ditto the above. So you want to drive out west from the east coast. Are you crazy? Do you realize that after you're in the car for 16 (18?) hours you'll be all the way to......Chicago?!?! And you're about to enter the flat boring plains. Fly.

Look at the base elevations. I have had no problems at Steamboat (6000 I think) or Big Sky (7900). You just have to commit to always always always be drinking water.

Sun Valley. Amazing groomers. Steep in general but not crazy JHole or Taos steep. Think of your fav east coast black. Now think of it groomed and you can let it rip. The greens on Seattle Ridge would be blacks out east. The bowls have a nice progression of steepness so you can work your way across as you adjust to it. These are bumped up. Everything is first class and is a place everyone should visit once. A pain to get to though.

Once you adjust to the steepness of west coast blacks you can hit pretty much anything out east. And except for exposed rock, your experience skiing on ice out east should allow you to handle any west conditions.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[Scruffy]

I am new and sorry if I missed this thread somewhere, but I have never skied in the west and have a few questions.

And anyone who wants to make a pitch for your fave/best Western mountain for intermediate skiers, go ahead!

thanks!

Go to Breckenridge, you won't be sorry. Lot's of crusing runs and when you feel like hitting harder stuff there's various gradients of gnar for you to wet your feet in. Plus, for your first out west trip the town is awsome; it's not always about the skiing when you're on vacation. And, there are other mountians within easy driving distance of Breck. Keystone might fit your abilities nicely. Copper Mt is another place for advanced intermediates to find challenging terrain. If you're on a budget, stay in Dillion.