The "Sugarbush Thread"

[WinS]

Killington's list of improvements for next year are indeed impressive. Since purchasing Sugarbush we have invested about $70 million in capital improvements (excluding real estate properties like Clay Brook, Ric Brook and Gadd Brook). Most of this has been skiing related with the largest components on 7 new lifts, lift upgrades and snowmaking upgrades and grooming equipment. But with an operation like ours there are many things that are not as visible that are required to keep everything in good shape but at roof repairs, flooring, carpeting, kitchen equipment, employee housing, vehicles, golf, the SHARC etc. Last year our CAPEX spend was $7 million which is not what we are financially able to do each year, but we think our infrastructure is in really good shape now so we can get back for a more normalized CAPEX spend.

 

[WinS]

Generally, I don't direct any of my posts to Win as a courtesy to the fact that he really does not owe any answers to us, the forum community. This is an exception!

Win, have you considered a Sugarbush + MRG pass product? Could that be worked? I'd image that myself and others would pay quite well (maybe $1300, say) for the product. It seems like a logical extension to the multi-area passes (e.g. IKON and others) that are becoming prevalent, only it would be of the "buy local" variety that seems to suit the Vermont ethos. Any thoughts?

A few years ago we initiated a joint college pass with MRG that has worked very well and we also have an Add-On to our 20's pass which allows one to ski MRG on weekdays non-Holidays. Already a number of people have passes at both mountains or take advantage of things like our Quad Pack. We are very open to continuing to find more ways to work together in the future.

 

[phin]

If anyone is out there today, a report would be much appreciated. Remaining hopeful.

 

[djd66]

There's already a skating rink in Waitsfield. Not sure I agree with adding competition to a local place. And I don't know that there's enough demand to support 2 rinks in the MRV.

Trust me - if they built it,.. people would come. There are shit loads of families that come to Sugarbush that never even make it off the access road. There is a big difference of being able to walk to an activity VS driving all the way to Waitsfield. For less than $50,000 they could build one where the unused basketball court is.

 

[tumbler]

Trust me - if they built it,.. people would come. There are shit loads of families that come to Sugarbush that never even make it off the access road. There is a big difference of being able to walk to an activity VS driving all the way to Waitsfield. For less than $50,000 they could build one where the unused basketball court is.

A rink for less than 50k? No way. You left off a 0. They are very expensive and not very cheap to operate. Rink is not needed, take the shuttle to Waitsfield to skate

 

[cdskier]

Trust me - if they built it,.. people would come. There are shit loads of families that come to Sugarbush that never even make it off the access road. There is a big difference of being able to walk to an activity VS driving all the way to Waitsfield. For less than $50,000 they could build one where the unused basketball court is.

I don't necessarily doubt they would come...I'm more concerned with then you may put a local business out of business.

 

[ThinkSnow]

In all the years I've been at SB, I've never heard anyone complain about lack of a skating venue. If we are discussing what to do with imaginary funds, then how about about adding snowmaking on the Out To Lunch trail, so SB village businesses can take advantage of overflow from the base lodges?

 

[djd66]

I don't necessarily doubt they would come...I'm more concerned with then you may put a local business out of business.

That is a really good reason to not improved your own business.

 

[djd66]

In all the years I've been at SB, I've never heard anyone complain about lack of a skating venue. If we are discussing what to do with imaginary funds, then how about about adding snowmaking on the Out To Lunch trail, so SB village businesses can take advantage of overflow from the base lodges?

The Skating venue was just an idea to add to the existing experience. You are right,... Sugarbush should not do anything to improve the experience outside of skiing. Guess what - every other major resort has added things to improved the overall skiing experience.

I could give 2 shits if they build a skating venue or not. My main point was for them to ADD to the skiing experience AND they have an existing pad to build on. Like someone said above - it would not cost $500,000 to build.

Have any of you been to the Shark recently? Sorry to say - but the place is a dump. I think the spin bikes are from the Reagan administration.

 

[cdskier]

That is a really good reason to not improved your own business.

It is called being a good neighbor. We should encourage people to explore the valley. "Community" is a big value that SB likes to talk about. (And fwiw, I think they do a good job generally speaking of promoting the community aspect of the entire MRV). A skating rink at SB would bring minimal (if any) revenue to SB itself, so I don't really even see it as an improvement. Most here seem to agree it isn't something we actually need.

I'm not saying SB shouldn't do any non-skiing improvements, but a Skating rink surely isn't one that should be anywhere on the list. Now on the other hand, I don't have a problem with SB improving their own existing facilities like the Sharc if that's needed.

 

[ThinkSnow]

Well stated.

 

[djd66]

It is called being a good neighbor.

So with that logic,... Your neighbor runs a restaurant. They do a complete shit job of meeting their customer's needs and the food sucks. Opening a restaurant on your property would directly compete with your neighbor - so you decide against it.

Mean while there is a guy in the next town that does not believe in any of this nonsense. He is a business man that wants to support his family and pay for his mortgage and build some wealth for his family. He knows there is only one restaurant in the valley and the food really sucks! He Builds a competing restaurant that is far superior. He has all kinds of things that appease to families. His business expands and the guy down the road goes out of business.

Like it or not - this is called capitalism.

 

[smac75]

The Skating venue was just an idea to add to the existing experience. You are right,... Sugarbush should not do anything to improve the experience outside of skiing. Guess what - every other major resort has added things to improved the overall skiing experience.

I could give 2 shits if they build a skating venue or not. My main point was for them to ADD to the skiing experience AND they have an existing pad to build on. Like someone said above - it would not cost $500,000 to build.

Have any of you been to the Shark recently? Sorry to say - but the place is a dump. I think the spin bikes are from the Reagan administration.

I am probably in the minority but I love that SB doesn't have a ton of after-ski family things to do. I am wiped after a day of skiing and love that we just go back to the inn and relax. I often think about families at Jay Peak - imagine sitting there watching your kids climb rock walls after a full day of skiing. No thanks! LAST thing i'd want to do! I realize the additions were probably mentioned as an alternative to skiing when skiing isn't great or when people want a break but I'm grateful for not having to hear constant complaints from my kids that they want to do this/that and me having to say no As it is I have to hear them complain about not being able to swim in the Claybrook pool every time we walk by but that's an easy one - members only kids!

I do agree that the SHARC could use some updating though.

 

[cdskier]

So with that logic,... Your neighbor runs a restaurant. They do a complete shit job of meeting their customer's needs and the food sucks. Opening a restaurant on your property would directly compete with your neighbor - so you decide against it.

Mean while there is a guy in the next town that does not believe in any of this nonsense. He is a business man that wants to support his family and pay for his mortgage and build some wealth for his family. He knows there is only one restaurant in the valley and the food really sucks! He Builds a competing restaurant that is far superior. He has all kinds of things that appease to families. His business expands and the guy down the road goes out of business.

Like it or not - this is called capitalism.

When there is a need, sure, makes perfect sense to create something better if other options are poor. In this case though, your argument was that people simply don't leave the access road, not that the Skatium was a bad skating rink. And in reality, Skatium was just recently on a list of top 10 skating rinks in VT.

Let me put this another way. If you 1) already have a successful business with a neighbor that also has a successful business offering a product that you don't, 2) like your neighbor, and 3) want to see your neighbor succeed as well, do you expand your business to suddenly start offering that same product even though it wasn't part of your core business? I suppose you could...but that's just called greed.

I am probably in the minority but I love that SB doesn't have a ton of after-ski family things to do. I am wiped after a day of skiing and love that we just go back to the inn and relax. I often think about families at Jay Peak - imagine sitting there watching your kids climb rock walls after a full day of skiing. No thanks! LAST thing i'd want to do! I realize the additions were probably mentioned as an alternative to skiing when skiing isn't great or when people want a break but I'm grateful for not having to hear constant complaints from my kids that they want to do this/that and me having to say no As it is I have to hear them complain about not being able to swim in the Claybrook pool every time we walk by but that's an easy one - members only kids!

I do agree that the SHARC could use some updating though.

Actually I don't think you are in the minority. The more quiet, laid back feel of the MRV was one of the things that I first loved as well (in addition to the skiing of course).

 

[ThinkSnow]

He has all kinds of things that appeaL to families. His business expands and the guy down the road goes out of business.

Like it or not - this is called capitalism.

I will have to agree that one of the aspects of capitalism certainly is competition. So if someone doesn't like the SB experience due to its non-skiing activities, they are perfectly free to go elsewhere to find those activities-- however I doubt SB will go out of business due to that. Oh, and I fixed the quote.

 

[ThinkSnow]

Actually I don't think you are in the minority. The more quiet, laid back feel of the MRV was one of the things that I first loved as well (in addition to the skiing of course).

+1

 

[djd66]

3) want to see your neighbor succeed as well, do you expand your business to suddenly start offering that same product even though it wasn't part of your core business? I suppose you could...but that's just called greed.

If expanding your business is called greed - Sugarbush would not exist. MRG was the first area in the valley. Mt Ellen and Sugarbush then built a ski area (next to it's neighbor and offered a similar product,...) Competing is not greed - If businesses compete - they will naturally step up their game and improve.

I am a firm believer of Adam Smith and the invisible hand!

 

[rocks860]

When there is a need, sure, makes perfect sense to create something better if other options are poor. In this case though, your argument was that people simply don't leave the access road, not that the Skatium was a bad skating rink. And in reality, Skatium was just recently on a list of top 10 skating rinks in VT.

Let me put this another way. If you 1) already have a successful business with a neighbor that also has a successful business offering a product that you don't, 2) like your neighbor, and 3) want to see your neighbor succeed as well, do you expand your business to suddenly start offering that same product even though it wasn't part of your core business? I suppose you could...but that's just called greed.



Actually I don't think you are in the minority. The more quiet, laid back feel of the MRV was one of the things that I first loved as well (in addition to the skiing of course).

That’s my favorite part of the mad river valley. I love the relaxed laid back feel there. Within the last 5 years or so I started going up for a weekend or so in the summer time and it’s great up there. Never super crowded and an amazing place to spend time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cdskier]

If expanding your business is called greed - Sugarbush would not exist. MRG was the first area in the valley. Mt Ellen and Sugarbush then built a ski area (next to it's neighbor and offered a similar product,...) Competing is not greed - If businesses compete - they will naturally step up their game and improve.

I am a firm believer of Adam Smith and the invisible hand!

It isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it seem. In the SB/MRG example there's enough demand for both to co-exist. Ultimately you could argue there's far more demand for skiing in the MRV than MRG alone would have ever been able to handle. Sure you could also argue that the demand exists because SB was built (if you build it they will come, etc). I don't see there being enough demand for two skating rinks to co-exist though and push each other to be better. So in this specific case, building one would not be the right thing to do. Sometimes you need to be capitalistic and expand and compete. Other times you don't. A smart business knows when to choose which option.

That’s my favorite part of the mad river valley. I love the relaxed laid back feel there. Within the last 5 years or so I started going up for a weekend or so in the summer time and it’s great up there. Never super crowded and an amazing place to spend time

Yes, I love the summer (and fall) in the MRV as well as the skiing in the winter/spring. Very relaxing. There's some great hiking too!

 

[nhskier1969]

In all the years I've been at SB, I've never heard anyone complain about lack of a skating venue. If we are discussing what to do with imaginary funds, then how about about adding snowmaking on the Out To Lunch trail, so SB village businesses can take advantage of overflow from the base lodges?

Agreed, if any upgrades should be done it should be expanding snowmaking. I agree with Out to Lunch trail, also I would like seeing snowmaking on Heavens gate Traverse.