Attn Second Home Owners in Vermont

[x10003q]

Yes, it certainly does. I'm a public school teacher in Vermont and many new hires end up going elsewhere because there is simply no place to live locally that is affordable. Every summer, our district sends out emails to staff asking if anyone has an extra room or empty apartment for new hires. Housing inventory has gotten slightly better since COVID but its still scarce and very expensive (especially long term rentals because they're mostly AirBnBs now). The recent flooding also threw some salt in the wound, as many homes are no longer liveable or are tough to sell because they will get flooded sooner or later.

Additionally, the population here is aging and many retirees can't handle the increased property taxes because they're on a fixed income. People are frustrated and tend to blame second home owners who are paying over asking price for homes and driving up the cost of living. There's obviously other factors but second home owners seem to be an easy scapegoat for some locals. That said, we certainly need tourists and "transplants" to fill jobs and keep the economy going.

I have a family friend who had a lifelong dream to be a school teacher in VT. Her grandparents retired to Stowe and she and her family were up there almost every other weekend when we were kids. When she graduated college in the mid-1980s with her ed degree, she got a job at the elementary school near Mt Snow. She found a horrible, swampy basement apt in an A-frame in Wilmington that she could not afford on her salary. She could not afford a season pass at Mt Snow, and skiing was one of the main reasons for her dream (her parents bought her a season pass). When we would drive up from NJ to visit her, we would stop at her mom's house to bring up provisions from her mom. We also used to bring her food, TP, alcohol, and we used to stuff cash in her wallet when she wasn't looking. She lasted one season.

Here we are 40 years later and there is still a shortage of affordable housing in ski towns.

 

[snoseek]

I have a family friend who had a lifelong dream to be a school teacher in VT. Her grandparents retired to Stowe and she and her family were up there almost every other weekend when we were kids. When she graduated college in the mid-1980s with her ed degree, she got a job at the elementary school near Mt Snow. She found a horrible, swampy basement apt in an A-frame in Wilmington that she could not afford on her salary. She could not afford a season pass at Mt Snow, and skiing was one of the main reasons for her dream (her parents bought her a season pass). When we would drive up from NJ to visit her, we would stop at her mom's house to bring up provisions from her mom. We also used to bring her food, TP, alcohol, and we used to stuff cash in her wallet when she wasn't looking. She lasted one season.

Here we are 40 years later and there is still a shortage of affordable housing in ski towns.

Except its gotten much much worse. Especially in the last 10 years.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Yep. Give me some credit--I held on for three years before leaving.

I think with my wife it was three weeks. Might have been less.

 

[180]

Where is it written that a teacher must live in the district they work in? Many of my kids teachers in Putnam County, NY came from Dutchess County. Many of my neighbors travel south to Westchester to teach. I have commuted over an hour by train to NYC for 30 years.

I am not sure what constitutes expensive housing but quick look on Zillow shows the Rutland area has many homes under 400k that look pretty nice.

 

[mister moose]

Here we are 40 years later and there is still a shortage of affordable housing in ski towns.

That's because affordable housing in a ski town is not realistic. Even 'employee housing' is subsidized by the resort.

Except its gotten much much worse. Especially in the last 10 years.

You mean the last ten years since the worst real estate crash of our lifetime and then COVID? You were in a downturn bubble and thought it would last forever...

Where is it written that a teacher must live in the district they work in?

Exactly.

 

[Hawk]

I agree, just pointing out that Vermont is already charging 2nd homeowners more on property tax based on the value of the property with higher values where many 2nd homeowners buy.

This is not true. at least in Warren and Waitsfield. This is a quote from an article I read.
"While there is a different tax rate for Vermont residents than for non-residents, on the face of it, the difference is very small and in some towns (Waitsfield and Fayston, for example) the residential rate is actually higher than the non-residential rate. The more important property tax benefit for Vermonters is found in an income sensitivity formula that reduces property taxes for residents with household incomes of less than $138,500 (calendar year 2020). About 70% of Vermont property taxpayers qualify for a property tax reduction based upon this formula. The reductions range from under $100.00 to a maximum of $8,000.00."

Also some people talk about taxes from state to state and how VT is way more expensive. But for a condo if you look at comparibles from state to state, we are talking about $100's of dollars not $1,000's. I would certainly pay a little extra to be at the base of Sugarbush over SR or Loon or Waterville.

But this new Idea of increasing taxes for second home owners is troubling. We get no vote, have no kids in schools, My road is owned by Sugarbush so we pay separate taxes on that. We use no senior services, hopefully no Emergeny medical or fire. In return we pay local resturauts, pubs and stores everytime we are in the valley. I also have donated to the local fire department, EMT service and flood relief. All volentary but we do contrubute to the local services.

 

[x10003q]

That's because affordable housing in a ski town is not realistic. Even 'employee housing' is subsidized by the resort.

I never said affordable, unsubsidized housing was realistic. I was just pointing out that the lack of affordable housing near resorts is not some new phenomenon. Short term rentals near resorts are a fact of life and if property owners can make more money with STRs vs a seasonal, they are going do STRs.

You mean the last ten years since the worst real estate crash of our lifetime and then COVID? You were in a downturn bubble and thought it would last forever...

Yes - with super low interest rates, too.

180 said: Where is it written that a teacher must live in the district they work in?


Exactly.

Also, I never said that a teacher must live in the district.

 

[BenedictGomez]

quick look on Zillow shows the Rutland area has many homes under 400k that look pretty nice.

Too bad Rutland doesnt.

 

[BenedictGomez]

You were in a downturn bubble and thought it would last forever...

Well, not exactly. Housing today is less affordable than any time in American history, including during the Housing Bubble.

There are signs of cracks developing though, we are passed the all-time high at least, and price reductions are the highest now since the ~2007 Bubble.

 

[2Planker]

Since Covid, there should be new definitions of Primary vs Vacation home.

If I'm there 2 weeks/month then it is my primary.

Actually they are are all primary, unless I've sold one in the last 30 months

 

[tumbler]

Taxation Without Representation

 

[Former Sunday Rivah Rat]

Well, not exactly. Housing today is less affordable than any time in American history, including during the Housing Bubble.

There are signs of cracks developing though, we are passed the all-time high at least, and price reductions are the highest now since the ~2007 Bubble.
View attachment 66257

I used to think that we were in a housing bubble too until I saw that the housing index has gone up less them the money supply.

 

[mister moose]

Well, not exactly. Housing today is less affordable than any time in American history, including during the Housing Bubble.

Why do you think that is?

(Do you have the criteria for that graph, what constitutes a house, how the costs are calculated, what corrections for inflation, etc)

 

[kbroderick]

Wanting to tax non-residents (that use far less services) more than residents is such a bizarre concept. No surprise that the poll cited in the article showed large support for that though. If you can get others that have no voice/vote to pay for your own stuff...why not. Good thing Scott has veto power and there doesn't seem to be veto-proof support for that.

FWIW...my taxes in VT have sky-rocketed the past couple years. On a percentage basis the increase is pretty substantial. It was fairly level for a long time with only minimal changes. I believe it was close to a 70% increase in total in just the past 2 years.

Non-residents aren't getting taxed more than residents; non-primary residential property is (or so is being proposed). A local resident who owns a second or third property used for STR would be paying the same nonresidential rate.

Residents are also paying income tax (not to mention excise tax and, most likely, more sales & use tax), which in Vermont ends up providing a nontrivial chunk of local funding (according to VTDigger, property taxes only cover 2/3 of school funding; cf https://vtdigger.org/2025/01/28/how-vermont-pays-for-schools/), so if the theory is that property tax should fund schools, then Vermont taxpayers are currently subsidizing property owners.

And while non-residents may not have a direct school system impact, they do use services; the two biggest lines in the municipal budget here are police and the transfer station, both of which see significant impact from second homes--when you have 3,000ish year-round residents and the local ski resort sees 15,000 skier visits on a peak day, you're building infrastructure and staffing for a much higher population than you have residents.

The article linked in the original post also hinted at the part of the equation that some people and places have used to argue for second-home tax rates: empty second homes are far less helpful then occupied residences. There is an externalized cost to community to have a significant chunk of housing stock empty 50 weeks of the year, because at that point it's neither housing workers nor housing tourists who will contribute to the economy (and yes, an empty house may mean some work for a property management company, but an occupied STR probably also means some F&B revenue in the community, maybe some lift tickets, etc).

FWIW, I managed to stick around for 11 years after graduation, but I had pretty much given up on any hope of actually owning a home several years before I left. Trying to save enough Vermont pay to compete with out-of-state money for real estate isn't any more fun than doing the same here in Maine.

 

[kbroderick]

Where is it written that a teacher must live in the district they work in? Many of my kids teachers in Putnam County, NY came from Dutchess County. Many of my neighbors travel south to Westchester to teach. I have commuted over an hour by train to NYC for 30 years.

I am not sure what constitutes expensive housing but quick look on Zillow shows the Rutland area has many homes under 400k that look pretty nice.

Speaking specifically to the Rutland area, I lived in Killington for a while a fairly often saw listings that looked appealing from a value perspective. Then I looked closer at the commute time to Killington (and in some cases even Rutland), or looked more closely at the neighborhood, sighed, and went back to whatever else I was doing.

There are nice areas in and near Rutland that are reasonably quick to Killington and Pico, but they're usually not cheap.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Why do you think that is?

ZIRP leading to the lowest mortgage rates in history, combined with "economic stimulus" (i.e. free money), combined with the largest second home buying frenzy in history (COVID escape), combined with the Biden Administration preventing home foreclosures, combined with the favorable demographics of the largest American generation entering its prime home-buying age.

It was a lot of things all at once leading to record-low home inventory & record-high home prices.

But I expect it to end soon, and with it, home prices being pressured probably starting sometime 2H25. Most people dont realize it, but we're finally back to pre-COVID19 inventory levels after > 5 years of record low-inventory, which is what was primarily the cause of propping up US Home prices.

 

[deadheadskier]

There are obviously regional exceptions. I'd like to see a graph for NH on inventory. There's no way much of the state is back to pre Covid inventory levels. Casual observation is the inventory in my town is still about half at best of what it was ten years ago. Pretty much anything that comes on the market is under contract in a week or less and sells for over asking price still.

 

[Edd]

There are obviously regional exceptions. I'd like to see a graph for NH on inventory. There's no way much of the state is back to pre Covid inventory levels. Casual observation is the inventory in my town is still about half at best of what it was ten years ago. Pretty much anything that comes on the market is under contract in a week or less and sells for over asking price still.

You’d need a straight up depression to get prices down here, and even that might not do it.

 

[snoseek]

You’d need a straight up depression to get prices down here, and even that might not do it.

New 1 br Apts in Rochester going at 2200 a month. It's fucking insane.

 

[Hawk]

$2,200 is a good deal in the Boston Area and suburbs.