The "Sugarbush Thread"

[solar]

Same. John B pm'd me about "tough" comments I'd made, asking if I wanted a dialog instead of public criticism

I really appreciate him reaching out and giving you the opp, but none of the criticisms seem new. They’ve all been brought up at public meetings, Sugarbush just hasn’t done anything about any of them or at least made stakeholders aware of what the plans are, short term or long term.

Working lifts have always been my primary concern but there are some many other operations they’ve gone dark on since Win left.

 

[Hawk]

If John actually PMd you directly and privately why would you come on here and point that out? You had a chance to have direct dialogue with management which is what you have been advocating for. Now they will never talk to you again. Truly bad form. I have had several interactions with management over the years. All stayed private out of respect

 

[Hawk]

In Vermont now. Skied at Middlebury yesterday. It was on comps but woof, it was rough (understandably so). Arrived at the Snow Bowl at about 10:30am. Only Sheehan with two groomed routes that were initially soft, but were freezing up as things went along. Cold wind. I figured that we would be the only ones there, but there were quite a few folks (passholders and school programs). The new Sheehan is nice. Snowmaking runs were solidly covered. The new nightskiing looks nice (an alum donated the lights to the ski area). Much more activity and energy than when I was a student.

After a visit to Middlebury College, I headed back to Northfield (where my sister and her fam lives) via good old Route 17. I drove that road all the time back in the day and love it. MRG was closed (as to be expected). I imagine that they will hustle to get things patched up.

Called an audible and dragged my fourteen-year-old daughter up German Flats Road to Mount Ellen at just shy of 4pm to get some merch. I had not skied there in 15 years. Some small changes from my quick view. Inverness was running, but empty. GMX was silent as advertised. Coverage looked decent overall compared to MRG and Middlebury.

The store moved slightly from where I remembered it being. I was able to grab some stickers for my nephew and niece (and friends) as well as a couple of posters (trail map on one side, princess skiing on the other). The shop had some neat items--only Glen Ellen items left were the hats (at over $40 each, yikes), one hoody, and pins. The custom Sugarbush Skida Hats were on sale--perfect for me! Love the red. Grabbed some stickers, an FIS replica sign, a few pins, and chatted with the clerk for about ten minutes. He worked Bravo last year and lives in Barre. I was probably his last customer of the day and judging by the empty parking lot one of his few (there was some kind of a conference going on in the lodge....interesting).

We chatted about the lift situation, the ownership and management, and just Sugarbush in general. He told me that Alterra HQ had final say on any merch. When Mount Ellen turned 60, the retail manager decided to "go rogue" and design the special items herself and without Alterra approval because she figured that they would say no. Seemed odd. He had not been there long enough to know much (or anything really) about Win. He said he is considering moving west to work at a bigger resort. Overall, the lodge looked nice still and the snow coverage looked pretty damn good considering the weather.

I was at Burke today. Natural snow trails, and a couple of snowmaking "supplemented" trails are just patches of ice and hard snow. The lower mountain skied pretty damn well--even at the end of the day. The groomers worked the hell out of it. I was impressed. I say lower mountain because my eight-year-old nephew was on his second day of skiing and he was with me and family.

My daughter and I did a spin up top on Carriage Road (very soft and nicely groomed, but icy in spots) and a decent Dippers. Tomorrow at Burke, and SB I imagine, will be better as they will have had more time to groom. I even saw some of the snowmakers at Burke checking guns and a fan gun at the lower mountain. I would not be surprised if they make snow--they have a big race next week and still a lot of season left. Relatively busy for a Friday, but dead up top.

It was nice to be in Vermont. If this was a "ski trip" then I might have understandably canceled. But this is a visit with family with "some skiing" so I am very happy. Any day on snow is great.

Hoping that Alterra gives Sugarbush some love.

Great post TB. Hope your time back home was fun

 

[Lotso]

Good to see NRX running...slowly, but running. Impressed at the crowds at both areas.

 

[Lotso]

And the MRG snow report continues to be ab entertaining and informative read: https://www.madriverglen.com/conditions/

And fireworks!

 

[vtski802]

If John actually PMd you directly and privately why would you come on here and point that out? You had a chance to have direct dialogue with management which is what you have been advocating for. Now they will never talk to you again. Truly bad form. I have had several interactions with management over the years. All stayed private out of respect

Because I knew he was trying to get my public criticism out of the public, which I thought was not productive or beneficial. ("Hey, if I talk to this guy privately at least no one will see it on social media")
They apparently need to be publicly criticized to be held accountable. My view is current (and future) passholders should know what they are getting when they purchase a product. Does the mountain step up and be transparent and responsive to public criticism, engaging in dialog? Or do they try to hide or delete stuff so they don't have to deal with it?
They did pretty good with their social media pride weekend post - comments about the lifts being down? Not so much.
It's not like I was out there flaming them on every post, personally calling for their heads on a pike, or nit picking over the downstairs at walt's not being cleaned up. It was the same very basic issues we are discussing this season- timely, transparent communication/operational updates and working/available infrastructure.
And correct that they don't respond to email (at least in my experience)

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Plus we have 3 anecdotal accounts right here of muting people for posting mild criticism or questions. Surely that is (or was) just policy, and that’s kinda pathetic

 

[NewEnglander77]

Plus we have 3 anecdotal accounts right here of muting people for posting mild criticism or questions. Surely that is (or was) just policy, and that’s kinda pathetic

A lot more than kinda pathetic. Extremely pathetic. The fact that we are aware and talking about it demonstrates its negative effect.

 

[thetrailboss]

This morning:
March 14th, 6:11 AM
*Mt. Ellen will open with Inverness at 8:00 AM and Northridge soon after*

Fingers crossed

Define “soon”

 

[thetrailboss]

I really appreciate him reaching out and giving you the opp, but none of the criticisms seem new. They’ve all been brought up at public meetings, Sugarbush just hasn’t done anything about any of them or at least made stakeholders aware of what the plans are, short term or long term.

Working lifts have always been my primary concern but there are some many other operations they’ve gone dark on since Win left.

The huge upgrade on most of the main lifts at LP done by Les Otten was 31 years ago…..

 

[MrGlen]

Here are some average lift age stats at sugarbush:

All lifts: 24 yrs
High Speed Lifts: 31 yrs
Fixed Grip Lifts: 20 yrs
Mt. Ellen Lifts: 28 yrs
Lincoln Peak Lifts: 20 yrs

Going to have to put a lot of money into these high speed lifts at some point. Their useful life is only so long…

 

[Lotso]

Here are some average lift age stats at sugarbush:

All lifts: 24 yrs
High Speed Lifts: 31 yrs
Fixed Grip Lifts: 20 yrs
Mt. Ellen Lifts: 28 yrs
Lincoln Peak Lifts: 20 yrs

Going to have to put a lot of money into these high speed lifts at some point. Their useful life is only so long…

Wow. How does this compare with most other resorts of similar size? I could probably just ask AI...

 

[elfnif1016]

Wow. How does this compare with most other resorts of similar size? I could probably just ask AI...

My guess is a lot older than its peers in VT.

 

[cdskier]

Wow. How does this compare with most other resorts of similar size? I could probably just ask AI...

For comparison, K is 31 years for Fixed and 22 years for High speed (27 overall). (And I didn't include Pico's lifts in K's numbers as that would skew them a bit older).

Stowe is 19 for HS, 30 for Fixed, 23 overall

The big problem with the high speed lifts at SB is that they were nearly all installed the same year (1995/1996 for all but GMX). But they also all have vastly different amounts of hours on them. Bravo would be the "oldest" by that metric while Gate House is younger, and Slide Brook is even younger... NRX is in a whole different category as it was moved and then rebuilt as well. All it would take for SB is to install one new high speed lift though and our average would drop in line with K basically.

 

[MrGlen]

Here are the numbers from AI. Important to look at median as well given the averages can be pulled down meaningfully due to one new lift or one dinosaur lift.

 

[urungus]

Killington’s fixed-grip average age is going to come down significantly this fall when the 53 year old Snowdon Triple gets replaced

 

[WoodCore]

I would argue that Stratton's detachable age is a bit younger than shown above as the gondola, URSA and AMEX have all seen almost complete re-builds/updates in the last 10 years.

 

[soposkier]

Here are the numbers from AI. Important to look at median as well given the averages can be pulled down meaningfully due to one new lift or one dinosaur lift.

View attachment 68345

Come on AI, SR has 4 yan lifts (or at least originally I think)

 

[MrGlen]

Come on AI, SR has 4 yan lifts (or at least originally I think)

You are right, I just checked Liftblog. Liftblog limited accessibility to its website so Claude had to scrape from other sources. I’m still impressed by the output. Would be neat to have Claude put together a market study on sugarbush and what needs to be done to improve the mountain / experience.

 

[soposkier]

You are right, I just checked Liftblog. Liftblog limited accessibility to its website so Claude had to scrape from other sources. I’m still impressed by the output. Would be neat to have Claude put together a market study on sugarbush and what needs to be done to improve the mountain / experience.

Interesting! Makes me think what other metrics other than mean/median would be useful. Custom weighted average to heavily penalize 30+ year old lifts?