22/23 Passes

[jimmywilson69]

Vails prices should've gone back up to the pre pandemic price. While I don't really have a choice but to get Epic Local, it's clear that Vail is not serious about preventing crowding

 

[drjeff]

I think that there is a bit of a disparity between the eyes of the consumer, who basically wants minimal to no liftlines on any and every day they want to use their pass and the eyes of the operator of the mountain who wants their resort(s) maxxed out on every day that they operate, which then allows them to more than likely increase their other revenue sources that they generate at the resort (Food and beverage, ski school, retail hard and soft good sales, lodging, etc).

What that happy balance point is, and what the price point it takes to achieve that in a way that allows for solid financial operations is likely going to be something that has 1001 answers based on what perspective you are looking at it from

 

[deadheadskier]

I think that there is a bit of a disparity between the eyes of the consumer, who basically wants minimal to no liftlines on any and every day they want to use their pass and the eyes of the operator of the mountain who wants their resort(s) maxxed out on every day that they operate, which then allows them to more than likely increase their other revenue sources that they generate at the resort (Food and beverage, ski school, retail hard and soft good sales, lodging, etc).

What that happy balance point is, and what the price point it takes to achieve that in a way that allows for solid financial operations is likely going to be something that has 1001 answers based on what perspective you are looking at it from

Sure, but the point is that many people are willing to pay more for a higher quality product with more attentive service.

Kinda like how some people choose to spend their money at a Four Seasons vs a Marriott or a Nordstrom vs Kohls. The two hotel and department store chains offer the same basic products, but vastly different levels of quality and service.

That's the problem many people have with Vail. They turned some of their Nordstrom properties into Kohls.

Ikon/Alterra certainly seem more committed towards offering that higher quality product. I'd say Boyne does too

 

[Zermatt]

Sure, but the point is that many people are willing to pay more for a higher quality product with more attentive service.

Kinda like how some people choose to spend their money at a Four Seasons vs a Marriott or a Nordstrom vs Kohls. The two hotel and department store chains offer the same basic products, but vastly different levels of quality and service.

That's the problem many people have with Vail. They turned some of their Nordstrom properties into Kohls.

Ikon/Alterra certainly seem more committed towards offering that higher quality product. I'd say Boyne does too

To make it even worse. A family of four (2 adults and 2 kids under 12) renewing on Ikon is $2,416 versus $2,538 on Epic.

So a worse product at a higher price. But lots of great places to ski in Ohio and Indiana and so many Japan options!

 

[jimmywilson69]

I thought for certain they would've added some blackout dates to Breckenridge, Mount Snow and Okemo (Stowe is already blacked out on the Local). This to me is telling that they clearly don't care about the crowding. They'll go through the summer blaming it on COVID and the available workforce. Then tout that their paying $20/hr min and it will be rainbows and unicorns next season.

Then Next Season will have to figure out some other BS to explain the crowds, besides they sell too many passes.

I'm sort of stuck with them, and honestly I have little complain about locally and I know better than to ski on the "busy" weeks and weekends in the Northeast. I had hoped to already have visited the Attitash and Wildcat, but not until its clear they will run them better.

I am strongly considering Ikon base as well, to use out west and up north. I have to see how my father inlaws health issues go through the spring before I spring for that unfortunately. I basically had the wife on board with Epic local and Ikon Base before this came up.

 

[snoseek]

If vail wants to sell some passes and retain some of their existing customers in nh they really need to give the buyer some basic assurances that next season will be improved and aside from increases pay what exactly is their plan to get there. Also what are they planning on doing at crotched? Back to a regular schedule?

 

[jimmywilson69]

It seems a Stevens Pass like response is warranted, but I'm not sure there is as much public outcry unfortunately...

 

[drjeff]

I thought for certain they would've added some blackout dates to Breckenridge, Mount Snow and Okemo (Stowe is already blacked out on the Local). This to me is telling that they clearly don't care about the crowding. They'll go through the summer blaming it on COVID and the available workforce. Then tout that their paying $20/hr min and it will be rainbows and unicorns next season.

Then Next Season will have to figure out some other BS to explain the crowds, besides they sell too many passes.

I'm sort of stuck with them, and honestly I have little complain about locally and I know better than to ski on the "busy" weeks and weekends in the Northeast. I had hoped to already have visited the Attitash and Wildcat, but not until its clear they will run them better.

I am strongly considering Ikon base as well, to use out west and up north. I have to see how my father inlaws health issues go through the spring before I spring for that unfortunately. I basically had the wife on board with Epic local and Ikon Base before this came up.

Strictly speaking about Mount Snow and no blackouts on the Epic local. In a roundabout way, with the paid parking they did this year, they effectively, from what I experienced personally, did reduce the weekend crowds. Pretty sure there were only 2 or 3 days (might of been a couple more, but definitely not say 10 days) where they sold out all of the parking spaces. Liftlines, while sizable at times, unless you were talking about a day when weather conditions had some lifts/areas of the mountain on hold, weren't regularly as large as they were before COVID hit. So I can see why they didn't add any blackout days to the Epic local, as even the Blackouts on the Northeast Value pass seemed to play into crowd control as well. I also do doubt a bit the seriousness of what was said about limit day ticket sales at certain peak volume times.

Did folks like the paid parking thing? Not everyone for sure. (I actually have read some posts on both EPIC and Mount Snow specific social media group sites where some people DO like the paid parking thing, as it has let them at times show up a bit later and park closer than they used to be able to, so those people do exist )

Also, there are MANY Epic passholders who aren't tied by geographic personal real estate holding to 1 specfic EPIC resort, who do jump around a but, and may also travel West to ski once or twice a season, who do like the flexibility it gives them. At times on AZ we tend to forget that the core group of people who participate here aren't always indicative of the majority of folks who show up at ski resorts every season. The bottom line seems to be that selling a couple of Million Epic passes does create some issues for sure. It also helps the cash flow, which can create opportunites too. Again it seems like how people view this situation will certainly depend on their own experiences both this season, as well as what they have come to expect in prior seasons.

I guess we'll see next year if the steps that they seemingly want to take to improve the "customer experience" effectively transfers from the press release about it to the various slopes of the properties they operate

 

[machski]

It seems a Stevens Pass like response is warranted, but I'm not sure there is as much public outcry unfortunately...

Think like Broomfield does here for a second. Other than Whistler/Blackcomb, Vail has no other resort in the PNW. Stevens is it for an extremely large market (Greater Seattle). So THEY HAVE to get Stevens right as there are no other options to try and please the masses.

Flash to NH and I think Vail isn't as concerned. Sure, many folks base out of the NH resorts that have run poorly this season. But their VT properties have run at a more normal level and that gives options in this region. Given the breadth of options, I don't see Vail playing the same make up game they are in the PNW.

 

[drjeff]

Think like Broomfield does here for a second. Other than Whistler/Blackcomb, Vail has no other resort in the PNW. Stevens is it for an extremely large market (Greater Seattle). So THEY HAVE to get Stevens right as there are no other options to try and please the masses.

Flash to NH and I think Vail isn't as concerned. Sure, many folks base out of the NH resorts that have run poorly this season. But their VT properties have run at a more normal level and that gives options in this region. Given the breadth of options, I don't see Vail playing the same make up game they are in the PNW.

Agree.

I am a bit confused that the folks out in CO don't seem to get that there are a large number of folks who live in the Boston area, who just don't go to VT for their ski/riding, but do go to NH, and then they probably go out West as well, and to kind of try and "force" them to their VT properties, let alone almost turn a blind eye to the year round draw that North Conway is, is truly confusing.

 

[jimmywilson69]

all valid points.

Its like they really don't see the NH performance as hurting their overall brand. And perhaps outside of this or a few other corners of the internet it isn't hurting their brand...

Almost anyone else I know locally who skis, has no idea how poorly Attitash and Wildcat have been run into the ground.

 

[deadheadskier]

Strictly speaking about Mount Snow and no blackouts on the Epic local. In a roundabout way, with the paid parking they did this year, they effectively, from what I experienced personally, did reduce the weekend crowds. Pretty sure there were only 2 or 3 days (might of been a couple more, but definitely not say 10 days) where they sold out all of the parking spaces. Liftlines, while sizable at times, unless you were talking about a day when weather conditions had some lifts/areas of the mountain on hold, weren't regularly as large as they were before COVID hit. So I can see why they didn't add any blackout days to the Epic local, as even the Blackouts on the Northeast Value pass seemed to play into crowd control as well. I also do doubt a bit the seriousness of what was said about limit day ticket sales at certain peak volume times.

Did folks like the paid parking thing? Not everyone for sure. (I actually have read some posts on both EPIC and Mount Snow specific social media group sites where some people DO like the paid parking thing, as it has let them at times show up a bit later and park closer than they used to be able to, so those people do exist )

Also, there are MANY Epic passholders who aren't tied by geographic personal real estate holding to 1 specfic EPIC resort, who do jump around a but, and may also travel West to ski once or twice a season, who do like the flexibility it gives them. At times on AZ we tend to forget that the core group of people who participate here aren't always indicative of the majority of folks who show up at ski resorts every season. The bottom line seems to be that selling a couple of Million Epic passes does create some issues for sure. It also helps the cash flow, which can create opportunites too. Again it seems like how people view this situation will certainly depend on their own experiences both this season, as well as what they have come to expect in prior seasons.

I guess we'll see next year if the steps that they seemingly want to take to improve the "customer experience" effectively transfers from the press release about it to the various slopes of the properties they operate

It's still hard to qualify normal due to leftover Covid changes in the world, but less than 9% of Northeast Epic Pass holders head West to ski. Over 90% only ski and care about here.

I'll echo snoseek in that Vail owes their NH clientele much bigger promises than just increased wages.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Is it really that low? I would say that more than 9% of the people skiing at Roundtop go out west to ski. My sample size would extend beyond my close ski friends who align closer to posters on this forum than the casual 5 times a year skier.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

there is also a contingent who buys the epic pass solely for their western trip, and don't ski here.

a buddy's wife's dad has a timeshare at beaver creek. they go out there for like 10 days a year. that's their only skiing. they have epic passes.

same buddy is also close with a dude whos family used to own the NJ devils and some newspapers, and he fuckin flew them out to Yellowstone club private all expenses paid. my buddy who struggles to ski down a vermont groomed blue

 

[deadheadskier]

Is it really that low? I would say that more than 9% of the people skiing at Roundtop go out west to ski. My sample size would extend beyond my close ski friends who align closer to posters on this forum than the casual 5 times a year skier.

It's a little higher in the mid Atlantic, but not much. I believe my friend who used to manage that data for Vail said 12%

 

[NYDB]

Flash to NH and I think Vail isn't as concerned. Sure, many folks base out of the NH resorts that have run poorly this season. But their VT properties have run at a more normal level and that gives options in this region. Given the breadth of options, I don't see Vail playing the same make up game they are in the PNW.

Don't forget Huntah. They seemed to have fucked that up quite a bit from what I have read this year. They have to fix that shitshow up too. Probably a higher priority than NH as well

 

[wa-loaf]

All things being equal I'd like to get an Ikon pass. I'd love to get some time at the Loaf and Sunday River. But as a veteran the discount on the Epic pass is hard to turn down. An Epic pass for myself and my son is half of what the Icon Base pass would cost me. I'll probably reluctantly renew the Epic. It's too bad Ikon doesn't match the same discounts Epic offers.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

its a good thing that ikon doesnt offer the discounts that epic does. that's the whole reason why its a better product delivering a better experience to their customers.

vail does provide a ridiculously cheap pass for veterans, but its a part of what degrades the quality of the skiing. but its so cheap that if i were you i'd just get both.

 

[wa-loaf]

its a good thing that ikon doesnt offer the discounts that epic does. that's the whole reason why its a better product delivering a better experience to their customers.

vail does provide a ridiculously cheap pass for veterans, but its a part of what degrades the quality of the skiing. but its so cheap that if i were you i'd just get both.

There are different levels of veteran discounts. Retired and active military get the dirt cheap pass. Those of us who didn't put 20 full years in get a higher rate. $480 this year that's actually close to $100 cheaper than last season. Dependent pass is $270ish. That's high enough that I won't get two passes. I'm not able to ski enough to make two passes worth it right now. I am also have to get Wachusett and Ski Ward (for my sons racing) passes.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

ah, i thought everyone was like $200